SOE -> ShowEQ Road Map

[Ratt]

I'm going to put on my Nostradamus had for a moment and see if I can guess at SOE's intentions towards ShowEQ.

Everything I say here is purely guess work, and may or may not be true.

1. SOE decides to make a definitive move to disable ShowEQ, knowing full well that SEQ can move to a memory reader based method to grab the key.

2. SOE goes ahead with the move, disabling SEQ in it's current passive state.

3. SOE sits and watches the different generations of sniffer programs take form, making note of common parts and disseperate parts.

4. SOE impliments a reporting system that catches the most common sniffers. Identifies how many SEQ people are using sniffers that are common.

5. SOE notes the accounts, but lets people keep playing. Players and users of SEQ grow complacent, thinking that SOE can not detect them.

6. SOE has oodles of data on who's using SEQ, and start mass bannings, trying to terrorize the rest they can not catch into abandoning ShowEQ.

7. Depending on the outcome of line 6, Verant realizes that the terror campaign does not work and starts work on protecting the key in memory.

8. Depending on whether work on protecting the key is sucessful or not, if not, they begin work on guerilla maneuvers to thwart the updates of ShowEQ. This continues until the ROI is not present.


I'll add and change this as time goes on.

[Amadeus]

In case anyone from SoE is reading this...let me make my opinion abundantly clear to you: Everquest is only enjoyable with ShowEQ.

I give you a lot of money per month, and if you don't want that, fine. However, you've created a game that's so time consuming and difficult that the average user WITH A LIFE will never finish it before you stop developing it and move to EQ2!

So, replace your nerf stick with a banning stick ... see if I care. Everquest without ShowEQ isn't worth playing anyway.

[link129]

Everquest without ShowEQ isn't worth playing anyway.

/agree
/cheer

[BOrg]

----snip----
6. SOE has oodles of data on who's using SEQ, and start mass bannings, trying to terrorize the rest they can not catch into abandoning ShowEQ.
----snip----
Well SoE may be watching the SEQ community and even reading this thread. But SoE, and the key word in SoE is SONY, wouldn't do mass bannings. It would hurt their profit margin. More likely they would ban a few high profile
characters from each server to set an example. As Ratt said trying to terrorize the rest into abandoning SEQ. Without banning paying customers. But SONY has shot it self in the foot before, BetaMAX and MiniCD for example. However, I digress....

I find it more likely that this is just Beta Testing for EQ2 in an effort to prevent the creation of an SEQ2.


Just an observation.

[BlueAdept]

Originally posted by BOrg
----snip----
6. SOE has oodles of data on who's using SEQ, and start mass bannings, trying to terrorize the rest they can not catch into abandoning ShowEQ.
----snip----
Well SoE may be watching the SEQ community and even reading this thread. But SoE, and the key word in SoE is SONY, wouldn't do mass bannings. It would hurt their profit margin. More likely they would ban a few high profile
characters from each server to set an example. As Ratt said trying to terrorize the rest into abandoning SEQ. Without banning paying customers. But SONY has shot it self in the foot before, BetaMAX and MiniCD for example. However, I digress....

I find it more likely that this is just Beta Testing for EQ2 in an effort to prevent the creation of an SEQ2.


Just an observation.

I disagree. I dont think they care if they ban even several thousand people. Sony is such a large company that even a drop of say $40,000+ a month is nothing. Their company is not riding on this. This is game is just a tiny speck on the overall picture.

EQ is winding down. Im sure one thing they dont want is a SEQ for EQ2 or Star Wars. I think EQ is going to become a proving ground for those games.

[MrMaster]

If that's the case, SEQ should remain broken until EQ2 comes out. This way, we are not Beta Testing thier protections for them. Just leave the GPS goin and let thier timeline run it's course. After all, patience goes to the hunter, not the prey...

[throx]

Who is the hunter and who is the prey? I'm sure Absor sees himself as the hunter as well. :)

Seriously, I think Sony gains more than it loses by banning ShowEQ users. There is a lot of good will to be gained from the general gaming community for a company that takes a strong stance against cheating. When it comes down to the "bottom line", the few thousand they may ban for using SEQ is easily made up in good will for the people that see Sony as a "good guy" from taking this stance.

[Gullork]

Even if the devs here were interested in going to EQ2 (which many might not), once they stopped support on this program someone else would take it up. If someone else took it up, it might end up like some macroquest program, without the moral guidance seq has received. And, if the devs are not planning on going on to EQ2, what difference does it make?

[MisterSpock]

I agree wholeheartedly with the earlier post.

EQ is enjoyable only with ShowEQ. I've said this before, but to me, it provides features that should be in the game.

At this point, I've been playing for over 3 years, multiple accounts, the whole 9 yards. I've had fun with the game, and continue to sporadically have fun with it. I've used SEQ from the beginning, and have never used it irresponsibly. In fact, it has helped others far more than it has helped me. However, leaving the game (either voluntarily or involuntarily) wouldn't really matter to me.

Just remember one thing, SOE. A satisfied customer tells one friend. A dissatisfied customer tells nine friends. With new products coming out, consider that before whipping out your banning sticks.

[Exo]

I'll say this much. I'm a guildleader and every officer uses SEQ as well as most other members of the guild. When SEQ couldn't be passive anymore I wrote my own sniffer such that it wouldn't be in common with anyone elses. I gave it to the officers (all old friends) and we voted on it as a guild. If SEQ bans any of us for use of SEQ or someone makes SEQ unfunctional we will shift in total, to a new game. Oh, and it will not be EQ2.

[whiteviperx]

Did anybody bother to think that if they really wanted to SOE could use a 64 bit encryption that would take us over 4 years to break, instead they use what? An eight bit? Did anybody bother to think that what we think of as an attack, could be just a change that was necessary to create POP? How many people are really using SEQ? 10 maybe 20 thousand, vs. the 400 thousand that don’t use it. If they were really trying to take showeq down they would without even trying. SOE probably use SEQ on their systems, only they probably already know how to pull they key off the everquest software and have no problems.

[Ratt]

Hi, Whiteviper... welcome back to the land of the light. The rock you've been living under for the past two weeks must have been cramped.

[Whitefire]

I know everyone will cringe at the mention of this, but it has to be said.

It seems like we all agree that SOE is collecting data on who is memory scanning for mass banning or their own amusement. I would also have to agree that banning 20k users is not going to bother SoE all that much. In fact I don't think they would think twice about doing it. Now this is the part everyone is going to hate.

If there was a Windows Version of SEQ and it was easy enough for even the most retarted jackass to figure out AND the program was made more public than it is now I am sure many more people then just 10 or 20 thousand would be using it. If you can get a large enough user base on Windows version of SEQ, SOE will have no option but to accept it.

I know this might be a hard idea for many of the people on this board to grasp since one of the main reason I can gather for keeping the project linux based was to keep everyone and their dog from using it. Just think about what I am saying for a moment...If we can get a windows version of SEQ out and working and get people using it, is SOE going to ban Half of their paying customers. While 20 thousand might be nothing to them, I have a feeling 200k would make them stop and think.


Whitefire

[S_B_R]

Whitefire, thanks for restating whats been said about 100 times already. I guess if you haven't read it it's new to you... :rolleyes:

[baelang]

At first i was worried about getting banned. i mean, i have a lot of time and money invested in my characters and i enjoy playing them. i have finally risen to levels that let me do the things i want to do in the game.

but then i realized the game is an addiction, like any other. if i end up getting banned, i will cancel my other two accounts and that will be that. end of addiction. i will have a lot more free time on my hands to do the other things that i enjoy.

so, i am not too worried if i am one of the folks in the mass bannings. it's just not that big of a deal to me. I guess for some, the addiction is more important. to each his own. if you are afraid, then don't use a keysniffer, and don't use showeq.

[Amadeus]

I personally think SoE is going to be a bit more discreet about the "mass banning" armaggedon that everyone seems to be preaching.

I mean, can you imagine a group of ShowEQ developers really pissed? I would imagine that the first time Ratt or fee are banned for using ShowEQ will be the beginning of a war that SoE will wish they had never started....

[QuerySEQ]

HACK THE PLANET!!

(sorry, tension breaker.. had to be done)

[outthere]

Here is a hint for VI. The only people that use SEQ are your long term players. If you want to piss them off into quiting the game go right ahead, but there goes your solid bank role each month.

The new players have hardly learned how to play much less learned of SEQ.

[rramsey]

A little bit out of context, but there is something to be said.

I went to FF this weekend and sat in two panels, Development and Customer Service.

Development was interesting because these guys were true and to the point and obviously played the game. Although SEQ didn't come up in conversation, it was very obvious that they are looking out of the long term of the game and seem to be putting a LOT of their efforts into balance.

CS on the other hand, were a bunch of 'save your ass' gimps. There were a lot of questions relating around rules etc. which I won't get into but the point I am trying to make is this... GM (or at least the GM lead of 'daytime GM's, the head of CS and some other guy up there, obviously DONT play the game, DON"T really care about customer satisfaction and are very metrics driven.

One guy asked if they had ever thought about having a customer satisfaction survey, and getting the opinions of the players. The bullshit that came from these GM's types about how customer service is so great, was very frustrated and i watched as two people left the panel in disgust.

So weith regards to SEQ, Im sure these 'suits' think SEQ is a massive bummer for their way of life, but as said in the previous post, it is obvious that their 'long' term' and loyal fans use this not as a way to 'cheat' the game but to enhance it.

We ask for bug fixes... What do they give us? EQIM (for pay), and a stupid mp3 player???

Suits and Money.... Check your 'logic' at the door.

[lane]

All good customer service deparments have a customer sat feedback survey that goes out after they do something for you (ie. you open a case). SoE does not have this. The reason? They suck so bad they don't want anyone outside the gaming community to know.

Just think if investors knew how poor thier customer service way. This is a sign of a company that is managed poorly and that ongoing revenue will probably go dow because of it. People say with a supplyer for two reasons. Great support or great product. I sure as hell don't stay with SoE for the support, and I'm just plain addicted to the product.

-Lane

[Shukz]

----snip----

SONY, wouldn't do mass bannings. It would hurt their profit margin

----snip---

Sony's making 100 million a year off EQ alone. With 95% of that being pure hard profit. If they ban Everyone that uses ShowEQ, thats probably less than 10% of the EQ population, if that much.

I think if they want to make a point, they'll do mass bannings and take a hit for a few million a year. After all when your making that much profit, who's counting.

[Shukz]

I hope they don't start mass bannings though. I had quit EQ for about 6 months. Sold my accounts and off I went into the realm of the Real. I had been playing since Beta 4 and to be honest I was just plain tired of EQ. I love MMORPG's, just didnt like EQ anymore. SEQ was the only thing that got me back into EQ, it made the game interesting again. I was able to look at it from a different perspective. And it was fun again :) I must admit that when World of Warcraft comes out, I'll be putting my EQ chars up for sale again. I can't wait for some really competitive games to hit the market. But untiull that day comes (in a few more months) I'll stick with EQ, but only thanks to SEQ.

In my opinion, instead of hasseling the SEQ developers, they should thanks them. I know Im not the only one who's taken this route and made these decisions. If it werent for SEQ, Sony wouldnt get to rob my credit card for 12.95 a month. How many thousands of dollars a month is SOE making off situations just like mine. Maybe they should consider that.

And you know, I don't even use a packet sniffer. I just use SEQ for maps to get from point A to point B a little quicker in the zones I dont usually travel in. I might run a packet sniffer, but im a systems guy, not a programmer so that realm is foreign to me.

[SomeOneWhoKnows]

There is a difference between revenue (how much money is coming into the company), and how much they are "making" (net profits).

You say they are making 100 million a year off of EQ, but even that is higher then their revenue on EQ.

They last claimed about 430,000 subscribers. Their current price is 12.95 a month. That's 5,568,500 a month, or 66,822,000 a year. However, they have several hundred employees (who they have to pay every 2 weeks (go look at the recent Game Developer article on developer salaries to find out just how much)), thousands of machines to power and maintain, and one whopper of an ISP bill.

I bet it's closer to barely breaking even... more likely still is that if they had not released PoP and made money on the box sales they would be in the red (negative profit (aka loss)) for the year.

Anyway, it's interesting that you all assume they are sniffing your memory to see what "key sniffer" program you are running and sending that info back to the servers. I would think that you could easily look at the packets to find something sending this information back to the servers. In the past when the showeq folks did that, they caused an uproar and SoE/Verant publically announced they would not scan user memory or send info back to the servers.

I think you people are drinking a healthy dose of paranoia.

[Shukz]

Lol, SomeOneWhoKnows

/em agrees on the paranoia comment


About the Income, i was refering to this post

http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2494

Read the post, go to the link, do the search for showeq and read the article. He may have been wrong, if that's the case then im also incorrect. Oh well, should research out my sources before I go shooting off my mouth Lol

[BlueAdept]

Originally posted by SomeOneWhoKnows
There is a difference between revenue (how much money is coming into the company), and how much they are "making" (net profits).

You say they are making 100 million a year off of EQ, but even that is higher then their revenue on EQ.

They last claimed about 430,000 subscribers. Their current price is 12.95 a month. That's 5,568,500 a month, or 66,822,000 a year. However, they have several hundred employees (who they have to pay every 2 weeks (go look at the recent Game Developer article on developer salaries to find out just how much)), thousands of machines to power and maintain, and one whopper of an ISP bill.

I bet it's closer to barely breaking even... more likely still is that if they had not released PoP and made money on the box sales they would be in the red (negative profit (aka loss)) for the year.


I seriously doubt that they are just "breaking even" or are in the red. I believe that Sony would have pulled the plug on EQ the minute that it stops turning a profit. Sony doesnt screw around when it comes to profit. As soon as it becomes a liability, Im sure it will be gone....look at Betamax and all the people that got stuck with them.

Even if they have an OC768 (I doubt they have even close to that bandwidth), the bills for that wouldnt even be near one million a month.

Ok...lets look at it this way. Ill be extremely generous with these figures.

1 mil for Inet. per month
1 mil for computers per month
1 mil for salaries per month
1 mil for misc expenses (including utilities) per month
-----------------------------------------------------
$1,568,500 in profit a month or $18,822,000 profit per year.

I seriously doubt their costs are anywhere near this. I would probably estimate it to be around 3 million profit a month.

[The Mad Poet]

Yeah but I'm sure they don't have one big pipe - from conversations they have had over issues in the past it looks like they have several major pipes to the different backbones in order to keep the traffic going.

That's why sometimes you see half a raid go LD at once... they were on the wrong pipe when it went down.

560,000,000 bits per second I'm assuming (100,000 people playing at one time according to quotes and all at 56.6k connections)..

That's aprox. 560 T1s... or 9ish DS3's... assuming minimum bandwidth to support the users ...

I'm sure it's much larger than that though - they have 2 separate server farms that requires connections like that to both - then the eruo servers need connections ...

They should be making a profit though - I believe that they bragged a few months back they cleared a million in profit just on the character transfer service alone...

For a million dolars you would think they could go through the hassle of letting you take your equipment...

[FeoF()]

I would also have to agree that banning 20k users is not going to bother SoE all that much

20,000 x 12.95 = $259,000 dollars per month. (not including any that play on stormhammer or extra services like name changes, etc)

Are you serious they wouldn't mind? Over one quarter of a million dollars a month. Someone would have to explain that to those who are in charge. Those who are in charge care more about the bottom line than anything else. What company can afford to lose roughly 5% of their net income for no noticable business gains.

[maggotboy]

20,000 users being banned would undoubtedly generate several more thousand players quitting in protest, followed by untold thousands of people who would've signed up but decided not to after the torrent of bad publicity that would follow.

This in addition to the fact that AC2 has come out, and many people are already defecting.

Image is everything. Once you've lost it, you never get it back. If Verant begins the mass-bannings, it will be the beginning of the end for them.

Maggotboy

[Shukz]

I doubt that banning 20K users would cause just about anyone to quit EQ. Maybe a few Hundred people who actually have a set of descent principles (mostly SEQ users) but beyond that, these virtual characters in Norrath are the only and most important things in Life to these people.

Authority is a pack of hungry Wolfes.

We are the Sheep.

When the Predators jump in and slaughter off a few, the others just turn their head and say "poor guy, glad it wasnt me"
At least untill it happens to them.

[someoneelse]

Sony may well ban huge numbers of players, or at least enough to make a their point. If Sony can't show that EQ is secure from cheating, then this could hurt the prospects for EQ2, and SWG. They could in effect sacrifice 250K income from EQ to ensure EQ2's, and SWG's revenue.

On the other hand, if Sony bans 20,000 players, that could represent many more accounts, and thus much more $. If someone lost the account with their main, then they'd probably cancel their mule, and merchant accounts. Sony claims 420,000+ accounts, but how many actual players?

[MrSteed]

Hi All,

This is my first post to this forum.

I'm in the "biz" as we say. In fact I work for a company that's about to go live with an online game RSN. I also happen to have been an EQ player from nearly the beginning and have used SEQ for quite some time. Good work guys! My interest in EQ was waning quite a bit, but I still play occasionally with SEQ.

Anyway, I used to work with the Lead Programmer on the EQ Live Team, prior to when he was at Verant when he was a rabid EQ player AND when he was, I know, one on the early guys working on ShowEQ. I really haven't had any contact with him for a while, I don't know much about the internal goings on at Verant, but I think I can give a good guess:

They are all HELLA busy on getting new features into whatever they happen to be working on next. They'll likely be crunching on a lot of REAL features, slipping schedules, dropping features, etc... My guess is thwarting the SEQ thieves is VERY LOW on the priority list in terms of scheduling engineering resources. When you've got something as complicated as EQ running LIVE, even minor code changes can have devastating rippling effects. So lots of resources have to be devoted to QA testing, regression testing, etc.... Sure, they may thwack the SEQ mosquito every now and then, but unless it really becomes a huge thorn in thier side I don't think they're going to devote much in the way of engineering resources to thwart it.

Probably, they'll figure they'll do what the can to thwart things in EQ if it isn't too risky to code and doesn't take too much time. Perhaps they'll take what they learned about hacking into EQ II and Star Wars for a better security system. EQ is working, its raking in cash, and its helping to fund EQ II. EQ II is thier future so you can bet thier super focused on that right now.

So, I wouldn't be too worried about EQ. Just my opinion...

MrSteed

[Puppit]

I agree with Mr. Steed. Just don't see this as a high priority for SOE, although if I am wrong, that's ok too. I also agree with several other posts...a) EQ only remains interesting with ShowEQ
b)There are other games out there waiting to be played
c)Perhaps most important, mass bannings would suggest a form of privacy invasion by SOE that would prompt me to avoid any other games sponsored by this company and advise my friends to do likewise. People are sufficiently upset by Microsoft's alleged attempts to pry into their computers - I think most people would actively avoid playing a game sponsored by a company with similar intentions.

[Relowd]

I'm no coder but its my understanding that if Sony jumps their Encrypt up too high then that slows down the client when it goes to decrypt, interfering with the speed of the game and therefore the whole Virtual World experience.

In addition I think that for any MMOORPG you will have an SEQ-like program for it. After all they are sending packets to YOUR machine, and as they say inquiring minds want to know. So someone is bound to develop something like this for EQ2 Starwars, SB, DAoC, anything that requires YOU the user to accept packets of data describing the world on THEIR servers.

I understand this says nothing of the complexities of creating these sniffing proggies, but ...to simplify...there is always someone willing. And whee there's a will there's a way.

As for a windows version, and getting thousands to use it, well we all know that unfortunately Terror tactics DO work on the masses and all it would take to halt the general player from attempting to use a windows version is threat of a ban, sure if everyone used it it'd be a major customer base cut, but if you play...ever just tried to get your guild to commonly use a specific chat channel or post a message on your forums, it ain't as easy as it sounds.

[Madman]

I wonder how many devs in SOE are laughing at this thread right now? Will they continue change in an attempt to make it so SEQ will break again and again? yes. Could they encrypt it so that Ratt goes to their door with a stick and a list of names of men wasting his time? yes.There will be no mass bannings. A few said the bannings would only decrease their profit margin by less then 10%. Show me a corp that has top management saying "well, eliminate the customers with the gaming edge and I'll tell the board why its down 10%." 1% can get a man fired. And don't tell me its Sony and they don't care.. Its a Sony sister company and they care about every penny. Now throw in the employee costs and time of waging war against showeq and try and put that on paper for your investors.

Sorry if someone ranted this or touched base on it. I was away for a couple months and didn't read the entire thread. I just stopped by for some source code and info. All I wanted to give was my 2 cents and calm some people down. Deterence is SOE's goal and I'm sure thats whats gonna happen with low costs. EQ2 and Star Wars is what their golden children are now.