Exp STILL NERFED after September 6 patch

[fee]

Using the exact same methodology from yesterday, I have measured the new experience gain. Refer to this thread for the details http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthrea...&threadid=1870


I am posting this information to address two points in the patch message.

- With that in mind, we've undone the penalties for killing low blue NPCs, and instead added an additional group bonus to those who fight NPCs that are reasonably close to the group's level.

The first part of this is incorrect. For a level 60 player, all blue con mobs less than level 55 now award only 75% of their previous experience value. See table.

mob lvl		|Pre Sept 4 patch	|Post Sept 6 patch	|% of pre Sept 6 exp
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
47		198810			149107			75.000
48		207360			155520			75.000
49		216090			162067			75.000
50		225000			168750			75.000
51		234090			175567			75.000
52		243360			182520			75.000
53		252810			189607			75.000
54		262440			196830			75.000
55		272250			398165			146.25
56		282240			440293			156.00

As you can see, mobs 54 and lower are rewarding only %75 of their previous worth. I believe Verant made a mistake when they attempted to fix the previous mistake.

- We're confident that you're going to find that the additional risk pays off *extremely* well.

I feel the added bonus on level 55 mobs is outstanding. Clearly this was the intent overall.


Too recap the important points from yesterdays thread.


How the server updates the client about Exp:

1) When a player zones/logs in. The cumlative value of experience the player has earned is transmitted to the client along with all the other player information. This is known as the CharProfile or PlayerProfile Packet. It contains every detail of your stats to your inventory. I captured the above data by zoning in, logging my exp value from this packet, killing and changing zone to get the update value. Simply subtract the 2 and there is your actual exp gained.

2) when the player earns exp, the server sends an update that moves your exp bar. This update does not contain the updated cumlative value but a value between 1 and 330. This value equates to exactly how many ticks are in the exp bar.

So for the math freaks.

1% exp equals 3.3 ticks ( note that since fractional ticks do not exist that the % is rounded ) This rounding can equate to a significant error reported by the % value in the client.

Using showeq to examine the contents of the CharacterProfile packet transmitted to client when the client zones, I was able to get the before and after experience for my character. These numbers listed below are provided by the server and are treated as empirical data.


Please feel free to cross-post but please do include a link back to this message board.

Thank you,
Fee
ShowEQ Developer
[email protected]

[Grakun]

fee, but some people use custom ui's that go across the whole screen to be more accurate... are you saying that those really aren't more accurate?

[S_B_R]

Nope they are no more accurate. the server still only sends XP when you get 1/330 (or more) of your bar. just because they make the bar bigger doesn't make it more accurate. It may make it easier to see changes when the server sends them but that's it.

[fee]

Grakun,

That is very good question. I do not have an answer though.


Let me state the following as a primer.

Alternate exp - the AAXP bar requires 15,000,000 exp to fill end to end. That equates to 45454.54~ exp per tick(330 ticks) (~meaning the 54 repeasts indefinitly). Since all classes require 15,000,000 AAXP per AApoint, this per tick value holds true universally.

Prior to the patch AAXP was gained using the following formula:

(moblvl^2) * ZEM * classmod) = A
(moblvl^2) * ZEM = B

B - (A - B) = aaxp reward

The amount of AAXP prior to the patch was always less than what would have been given for LevelEXP.

Prior to the patch a Levell 47 mob would reward the following in exp.

AAXP 132540
Lexp 198810

The amount of AAXP awarded would be 2.91588. (following the rules of significant digits this does not round)

The server would then transmit an expupdate that tells the client to move the bar 2 ticks.

This formula evidently holds true following the patch. In this case the AAXP awarded will reflect the bonus in the above table.

So how does the newUI report the percentage? I can not say for certain, so I will leave it to the reader to determine what if any rounding error the client does not show.

Fee

[BaelinTM]

Idea :

- Verant said they smoothed out the experience gain over all the 50+ levels

- when you wke up after the patch you still had the exact same amount of xp in your bar as you did before

Now it's possible that verant made new tables and then recalculated the experinece values for serveral million characters ut they've stated before that they couldn't do that.

What i think they did is that they left the experience tables and current xp amounts in tact but they added a special modifier on the amount of exp you gain depending on your level ... causing you to progress trough some levels a bit slower (the non 51,54,59) levels and getting a bonus to your exp on the hell levels (51,54,59) causing the effect of a smoother progression trough the levels.

[BaelinTM]

Oh btw fee .... was your above table made with aaxp on 100% or normal xp on 100% ?

if it was made with normal xp on 100% i'd say my theory explains the difference .... especially since it's exactly 75.0 on al the lower levels. (I.E. a hard modifier on xp gained)

Anyone (fee ?) able to come up with a table of xp gained per kill with aa xp on 100% ?

[Mr. Suspicious]

Xp gained per mob is XP gained per mob. It doesn't matter if that XP goes to the AAXP bar or the Normal XP bar. The numeric XP gained in both cases is exactly the same.

[BaelinTM]

Actally it does matter ...

Exp gained per mob is the same but there are a buch of different modifiers applied based on wether the xp goes into your normal xp bar or into your aa xp bar ....

if you're gaining aa xp at 150% normal mob xp (the 150 number is for examples sake) at level 59 and only at 75% at level 60 that''d be screwed up to say the least

Also normal xp gets some bonuses they added to get rid of the class xp pentaly ... beore some classes neede 1.2 times as much exp to gaint certain levels ... they didn't change a thing about the exp tables when they removed that pentaly ... they just made all those classes gain xp 1.2 times faster so they leveled at the same speed as a class without a penalty.

When aa xp was 1st introduced this caused a problem cause all of the classes that had a pentalty before were gaining aa xp at 1.2 times normal rate ... that's when they changed the formula that is used to gain aa xp from level xp to make is so that everyone gained the exact same amount of aa XP from the exact same kill.

You say that each mob gives the same amount of xp wether it goes to aa xp or to normal xp ... that's true up untill a point.
You gain the same amount of BASE exp BEFORE the modifiers are applied ...

what i think is that when they redistrubuted the amount of exp needed for level 51-60 they added the 0.75 modiefier to NORMAL level 60 exp to make it seem level 60 is a bigger level.

I would not be surprized at all (in fact i expect is) that is you run the same test done above for a level 59 char instead of a level 60 (that i assume was used) you'll find that the numerical amount of normal xp gained for the lower level monses has a 1.5 modifier (or something close to that) instead of a 0.75 modifier like level 60 ... which should make level 59 seem like it's a smaller level cause you gain xp faster.

Now AAXP SHOULD be the same for everyone ... you need 15mil of xp points to fill an aaxp evel calculated of base xp gained per mob without the whole bunch of modifiers applied to normal exp to compensate for class penalies, the smoothing out of post 50 level and god knows what else.

That's why i'm interested in seeing a similar table as the one in the 1st post with aa xp on 100% before and after ... cause if aa xp really is back to normal as verant claims (and i belive em btw) then you should see that aa xp is exactly the same as before the patch cause they shouldn't have messed with those modifiers.

Personally i think my theory is correct (well duh) but i don't use show EQ myself so i can't make a table with hard numbers to confirm it.

That's why im interested in seeing a table liek the one in the 1st post with aa XP turned up to 100% ... to avoid the new modiefiers they apied to single xp in order to smouth out the 51-60 progression.

Anyway i think i'm starting to repeat myself and this post is getting too long .... hope i'm making sense

[fee]

Baelin,

Please have a look at my second post in this thread. I describe how AAXP is gained. Because part of the AAXP calculation is the same formula that is used in Level EXP, the amount of AAXP is also less.

fee

[elasto]

I think BTM may have a point.

Each level takes as much or as little xp to fill as they ever did, it's just that while in the level each mob killed gets a bonus or penalty to make it *look like* each level takes a different amount to ding than before.

Hence, the reason why each mob is only giving 75% of the previous xp is that they have made 60 a slightly longer level. If the same test had been done in 59 each mob might be giving 150% of previous to make the level shorter.

Dont forget that with each patch they have changed the number of kills it takes to fill lvl 60, first they doubled it then they brought it back closer to the original again. They didnt really change the amount required at all, they simply changed the xp given by mobs to a lvl 60.

We are talking about two different adjustments here - mobs giving more or less xp in order to smooth out 54&59&60. and mobs giving more or less xp due to being too 'easy' or very 'hard' to the group fighting them

AA xp will only reflect changes in the second, not changes to the first. It is the second we are really concerned with in this thread.

I know you said you replied to all this critisism in your second post, but I didnt understand. Can you please elaborate a little more?

[Gallenite]

Fee:

As much as I'd generally ignore someone who's parsing information, your second set of assumptions are just as incorrect as your first ones.

Parsing doesn't tell the whole story unless you know how those numbers are being generated.

As with your post on the day of the patch, you continue to interpret the data wrong.

People keep telling you (Baelin, in this case, and I forgot the name from the other thread) the part that you're missing, and you keep ignoring them for some reason.

What you're seeing is the effect of the post-50 "hell level" rebalancing modifier. You're forgetting to take that modifier into account. We fixed this the same way we fixed levels 35-50.

From the patch message:

""Penalty levels" have once again been rebalanced such that level 60 is much closer to the half level that it was before, and experience was instead redistributed throughout the earlier levels."

You really should have been using AA this entire time, which isn't subject to hell level modifiers, and you'd find the numbers are exactly the same as before any of the patches.

Or, you might want to try it with a level 59 character, in which case you'd see something to the effect of 20% *more* experience per kill.


If you're going to insist on snooping data, at least take some pride in your work and do it right. :)


I generally wouldn't bother with this, but snooping information, then interpreting it incorrectly, then using it to rile up others really doesn't help anyone.


Best,

- Scott Hartsman
Technical Director, EverQuest

[BaelinTM]

Elosto is getting my point ....

Let me give an example with nummers that might clarify stuff. ( i made up the numbers but you should still see my point )

let's say that you need 7.500.000 exp to fill up level 60 and 15.000.000 exp to fill up level 59 ...

Now add random farm mob into the example .. well ... when killed before the patch bob gave exactly 100.000 experience.

Meaning you needed 150 bob kills to fill up level 59 and 75 to fill up level 60

Now ... if VI added 2 seperate modifiers for level 59 and 60 to incomming normal xp they could make is so that filling up level 59 takes 115 bob kills and level 60 takes 110 bob kills.

This would mean that it still takes 225 bob kills to go from no xp in 59 to full xp in 60 ... the progression would just be a lot smoother.

I know this example in extremely simplistic but if verant added proper modifiers to all the levels from 51 till 60 thay could have made it so that it took the exact same amount of bob kills to get from no xp in level 51 to full 60 but with a much smoother progression

Now for AA XP.
Here's the formula before the patch you gave:

(moblvl^2) * ZEM * classmod) = A
(moblvl^2) * ZEM = B

B - (A - B) = aaxp reward

If you look closely at what it does is that in compensates so that every class gets the exact same amount of AA XP regardless of class modifier.

The one thing that's imho flawd in your reasoning is that you're assuming they didn't change the AAXP formulla.

I belive they changed the AAXP formulla to compensate for both class modifier AND level modifier so that everyone gets the same amount of AAXP per bob kill regardless of class AND level.

If they did it like this (wich i strongly belive they did) you would end up with a system that:

- would still requipre the exact same amount of bob kills to get from no xp in 51 till full 60, but with a smoother progression

- would still require the exact same amount of bob kills per AA level

- would NOT require verant to mess with serveral million people's current xp levels (wich is something they once said they didn't want to do cause of the HUGE time investment needed and huge probablility of a screwup somewhere)

- would explain the 0.75 modifier you see on a level 60 char's normal xp

[BaelinTM]

Ohh .. looks like a verant programmer took the time to reply while i was typing my previous reply lol (took like an hr to type) ...

Anyway there's your explanation

[Amadeus]

It would be nice if at the end of all of these elaborate explanations, if everyone could summarize their findings in a short statement in plain english

[King Tordown]

Following the 9/04 patch experience for mobs below your level dropped significantly. It went to about 35% of the experience you were getting on those low dark blue (for level 60 that would be around 46-47th level mobs).

What fee is telling us from his data is that now, any mob within a few levels of you will give a substantial exp bonus and the lower level dark blues will be reduced to an even 75% of the experience you were getting prior to this 9/04 patch.

So, in conclusion...

the experience for soloing or casual players has been nerfed, but boosted back to a somewhat more reasonable level with this post patch, patch.