Is SEQ Working?????

[S_B_R]

Originally posted by wolfy
many people like yourself can figure things out for themselves, but there are many people who can't. It should be down to the people who can, that help these new users, and not encourage attacks on them.

Remember this: There is a difference between those that Can't and those that Won't help themselves.

We have no obligation to spoon feed those that won't make an effort to help themselves. In this forum there is virtually no reason that someone can't help themselves, yet there seem to be many people that seem incapable of doing just that. I put forth that these people choose not to help themselves. We give them a hand up, we point them towards the goal, yet they won't take the steps to get there.

[wolfy]

Originally posted by S_B_R


Remember this: There is a difference between those that Can't and those that Won't help themselves.

We have no obligation to spoon feed those that won't make an effort to help themselves. In this forum there is virtually no reason that someone can't help themselves, yet there seem to be many people that seem incapable of doing just that. I put forth that these people choose not to help themselves. We give them a hand up, we point them towards the goal, yet they won't take the steps to get there.

yes, i agree, but there is a way to handle these things.

if someone is shouted at, made to look an idiot, they will reply in the same manner, get antagonistic, and flame back.

if you were just to kindly reply, "please search for blah-blah" you will find what you are looking for. the post will slide away to oblivion, and you will have one more happy forum user, instead of someone out to bite your head off.

[S_B_R]

Most people do actually simply say "Use the seach fuction". The problem then becomes, either the person thinks they've just been flamed and, as you said, flames back. Or that person Simply bumps thier post. Trust me, we've seen it all here. It comes down to one basic fact, if you don't want to help yourself we don't want to help you either, so get lost.

As has been said before, we really would rather not have those types of people using SEQ in the first place.

[wolfy]

heh, see your point

thanks for the civil answer

[RavenCT]

Besides, there is that BIG flashy warning when you first get to the formus warning you to search first, and if you don't, expect to be flamed.

You can't say that people aren't warned

[mxedisn]

As a high school teacher, I frequently answer the same questions over and over and over again.

Granted, though I am a technical sort (before teaching math, I was a perfeshinal kampyooter geek), I am also in the business of helping people to learn things. And there is such a thing as a valid, completely stupid, question.

When a student just doesn't "get it" for some reason, and a question is asked, I transform into "kindly teacher" mode, and do everything in my power to ensure that the student will end up, when I walk away from his or her desk, "getting it." Even if the problem preventing the "getting it" is one of the student thinking a rectangle is a triangle, and just misreading it, or reading the instructions wrong, or just not understanding something which, to 95% of the human race, is totally obvious. This is a situation where the student is trying, but failing. The question or problem may seem obvious to me, but, hell, I've taught the class for three years, and taken about 14 semesters of calculus.
(well, maybe 6)


When, on the other hand, I say to the class, "I want you to work on Investigation 1 on page 326 Let's wrap it up in 15 minutes and then discuss it," and write on my whiteboard in great big letters "Invest. 1, P. 326 - 15 Minutes" and then a student looks up and says, "What page are we working on?"

Well, let's just say...
Your faction standing with Math Teachers of Rifle could not possibly get any worse.
/tar Math_Teacher[01]
/con
A Math Teacher scowls at you, ready to attack. What do you want your tombstone to say?

See the difference? On the one hand, it's an attempt by someone who doesn't know as much as you to get help to learn more. On the other, it's a total loser brain fart who couldn't win a battle of wits with a soap dish.


It's much the same here, I think...

Any message that starts with, "I searched for opcode, decode, and packet decode and came up fruitless with an answer to the following question..." [follows is a question that would NOT be answered by such a search, or to which such a search would not only yield the answer sought, but to 37 million other answers -- a brain-dead search, but well-intentioned...]
Here's an example where the knowledgeable amongst us can go into Kindly Teacher mode. An earnest person, might suck at searching, but still, this person is trying. We temper the flames... Modify our response which initially might be "You total freaking moron! How could you expect such a suck-ass search to..." to, "Nice try, and what you might want to try again is a search on [appropriate keyword goes here]. This problem is well documented. You should have no trouble finding it... If you need help, post here again..."


Same idea, same information movement, WORLD of difference in efficacy.

IF you get pissed at people who ask valid, yet totally stupid questions, THEY WILL NOT LEARN. THEY WILL NOT GET BETTER... THEY WILL ONLY HATE YOU. They will stop asking intelligent questions, stop learning, and any future hope of their contributing to the community is lost forever (or at least the probability of such future contribution is reduced dramatically).


Of course, if that's what you want, then you're probably a pinhead.

If someone asks a totally stupid question, that's NOT the result of an earnest attempt at learning, then you rip 'em a new one, humilate them in front of their classmates, or, as I did on one occasion (something I'm not at all proud of, it happened when I was a substitute for an 8th grade math teacher) make some poor girl cry (and when I did it, it was a question of the first type... I was a real asshole that day... Something I try very hard to prevent being... My life sorta changed when I saw that girl start to cry...)


Anyhoo... My 2 cents as a pro. educator.

-Max.

[Lyroschen]

Much like coding, pattern recognition, and logical problem solving are skills; which some are good at and some aren't. So is searching...

Then again, so is diplomacy. Maybe it's just easier to be mean. ::shrug::

::side-steps a possible human nature discussion::

Maybe flaming is a skill, too. How do you know when you're REALLY good? Do you make someone cry? Maybe get someone to apologize? How about getting a message like: You've become better at flaming (255)!

At any rate, a flame-free environment does encourage folks to take liberties. If there's no consequence for asking questions you could answer yourself with a little digging, then folks will quit searching, and ask in the forum. It's easier for them. At the same time, a flame should be corrective as opposed to abusive, if you actually want it to provide positive results.

Something like:

Nope, it's still down. Here's a N00B token, go take a ride on the search button. You'll find your answer under "Is SEQ Working" and won't have to ask again.

Can be constructive while still being corrective. Should be used with folks that have a tendancy to ask stupid questions.

Anyway, it may all be moot, considering the new forum. (well done Ratt) But, that's my two copper pieces.

[who_me_use_seq]

On the one hand, it's an attempt by someone who doesn't know as much as you to get help to learn more.

I see your point and I think it is valid. The point at which our perceptions divige, I think, is that you are seeing this as a teaching forum.

I don't think that the purpose of this forum is to teach others. I view it as a club rather than a school. There is a modest barrier to entry, but once you are in, if you do not make yourself obnoxious, you are allowed relatively great latitude in what you may say and what you may ask.

I think that most of us agree that we do not want to make SEQ so easy that it can be widely adopted. Else the windows version would be recompiled, widely circulated and provided with an extensive help library.

SEQ is a relatively unique product. One that has a massive and proven value, and for which the producers do not charge. They do require that you be of sufficient intelligence to follow simple directions in order to use their product. I find this to be a refreshing approach. I have always been of the opinion that stupidity should be made painful and expensive. Disincentives do work. That is why I have always been in favor of state run Lotto. I view it as a tax on people for being bad at math.

[CybMax]

I can understand that some questions turn into a flame war, but it is a lot easier to sometimes make a decent post in return..

Like the "teach" up here say, instead of replying "You are the dumbest asshole EVER to read a board.. i cannot imagine how you even understood how to gain access here", it could be a lot more educative to reply with "Please use the SEARCH function and search for keyword 1 2 3"

But.. then again.. there is the problem of the "neverending asking" thing.. So.. what can be done?

I work at a computer store building computers/repairing/support++ things.. and what would we do if we sold 2000 computers, and then found out there was a bug with the computer that would make XP hang when you viewed DVD movies? Would we reply every phonecall with "Damn.. you are an idiot..", OR would we perhaps put an "sticky note" on our supportpage saying "There is a bug with the Bigsystem2003 computer that makes it hang when you play an DVD movie in windows XP. Please check back on this page to see when a solution is aviable".

And what would this correspond to when it comes to THIS board? It would be VERY easy for a admin to put up 1 sticky post saying simply "Per 28.jan.2003 SEQ is NOT working. The developers is working to find a solution. Please check the "Announcement" thread for a fix".
End of story.

Perhaps it actually would make less people post "Is SEQ working"? But noooo.. cannot do something THAT easy.. People should use search, and find that 1 post under the "I got chicken McNuggets for lunch" thread where 1 person mentioned "Oh.. and btw.. Seq is broken". Cos if 1 person posted that in a thread that had NOTHING to do with anything.. it WOULD be a post, and it WOULD be found with a search.. therefor.. it is enough, and no need to make an easy solution.. Right? As long as 1 post mention it is something wrong, that should be sufficient for everyone not to ask anything, and just wait patiently while no other posts are made until fix is ready.

[who_me_use_seq]

It would be VERY easy for a admin to put up 1 sticky post saying simply "Per 28.jan.2003 SEQ is NOT working. The developers is working to find a solution. Please check the "Announcement" thread for a fix".

Lets see here.....There is a patch. You log on and discover that SEQ is b0rked. You go to the SEQ forums where you see maybe what?........20 posts saying that "SEQ is not decoding packets wtf?" followed by maybe twice as many flames saying "Well Duh....When it is fixed you will see it in the announcement section"

If you could explain which part of that taxes your mental capacity then we would know how to more accurately ridicule you. As it is I guess I will have to just go with the old standby. -----You Fucking Moron----

I am going to go beat my head on the cement for a while for having given the exact same answer that has been given to the last dozen morons who had the flash of insight offered by this weenie.

[who_me_use_seq]

This link is a proven thread stopper.

I offer it here as a public service.

Click me

[wolfy]

who_me_use_seq you have got better at missing the point (1)
who_me_use_seq you have got worse at flaming (-20)

[wolfy]

Originally posted by CybMax

And what would this correspond to when it comes to THIS board? It would be VERY easy for a admin to put up 1 sticky post saying simply "Per 28.jan.2003 SEQ is NOT working. The developers is working to find a solution. Please check the "Announcement" thread for a fix".
End of story.

exactly.

This is what i would do, if i were a moderator on these boards.

[high_jeeves]

And how exactly will that one sticky thread work better than the 5 threads in the top 10 titled "Show EQ is broken?", or something similar? The problem here is, people dont real first. Make it sticky, make it flash, make it a .wav file that plays telling them ShowEQ is broken.. none of it will make any difference...

--Jeeves

[bubbahlicious]

Originally posted by who_me_use_seq
Lets see here.....There is a patch. You log on and discover that SEQ is b0rked. You go to the SEQ forums where you see maybe what?........20 posts saying that "SEQ is not decoding packets wtf?" followed by maybe twice as many flames saying "Well Duh....When it is fixed you will see it in the announcement section"

This was not the case the first couple days SEQ was broken. A sticky post would have been nice.

If you could explain which part of that taxes your mental capacity then we would know how to more accurately ridicule you.

Don't use the word 'we'. You don't speak for me, or anyone else capable of mustering even a modicum of restraint. The tone you're taking isn't called-for.

As it is I guess I will have to just go with the old standby. -----You Fucking Moron----

I assume here's where the thread gets moved to Ratt's new area.

I am going to go beat my head on the cement for a while for having given the exact same answer that has been given to the last dozen morons who had the flash of insight offered by this weenie.

The person you just flamed had a totally legit point. Although I will take you up on your offer to go beat your head on cement for awhile. Be my guest.

Back to the first part:
Yes, this has been brought up before. But to me at least, it makes sense. It's very very easy to post a sticky topic at the top of the general forum, something to the extent of "As of the January 28 EQ patch, SEQ is no longer functional. Keep your eyes on the Announcements forum to know when this issue has been resolved."

If it's a 30 second effort, and potentially saves hundreds of people 30 seconds of search time, why flame someone for suggesting it?

Next time SEQ gets hosed, I hope someone will do exactly as CybMax suggests.