so whats every1s view on the US/Iraq situaton?

[nerfherder]

Well... As a member of the Moderates....

You know the 85% of americans that:

1) Work for a living
2) Raise kids
3) Don't rely on social programs
4) Don't have trust funds

I thing the "conspiracy idiots" (extreme left) and the "nuke-em-all nazi's" (extreme right) are really quite amusing in their delusions. I derive a great deal of entertainment from listening to these mental midgets bicker with thier skewed personality disorders.

It was interesting watching MSNBC, CNN, and FOX yesterday during the sandstorm. The networks were all at an absolute loss since they had no video to show. All they did was put up talking heads. More often than not it was under the guise of presenting both sides as if there were only two sides to this issue. The "No Spin Zone" was particularly amusing when O'Reilly introduced his two guests as the "liberal" and the "conservative". Both of these talking heads puffed up with indignation when assigned these titles.

I don't like the so called conservatives because they fail to see the root causes of problems and I think the so called liberals are living in a fantasy land.

Again who speaks for the middle?

[Borscht]

I thing the "conspiracy idiots" (extreme left) and the "nuke-em-all nazi's" (extreme right) are really quite amusing in their delusions.

ROFLMAO!!!! Here is the clearest illustraton of the selfish motivations of those who describe themselves as "moderates", "centrists", or "the middle".

These are people who lack any coherent or consistent principles or convictions.

And they congratulate themselves for "rising above" and "standing outside" of the petty arguments of others. Ah, so sage and wise compared to all of us heathens.

The rest of us don't have jobs, don't raise kids, rely on social programs or trust funds for our income. We are either "conspiratorialists" or "nazis", unlike the refined and perceptive "moderate".

Again who speaks for the middle?

Well, you could have. But instead you chose to pat yourself on the back and insult everyone else. Very typically "middle".

Why don't you speak for the "middle". First, provide us a list of the ten Greatest Moderates.

Then illuminate us on the unique perspective of the "middle" on the salient issues of this war. By all means, speak for the "middle".

About 80% of the American people support the war, we can assume the left comprises the remaining 20%. And that Conservative support is pretty much unanimous. So how does the "middle" factor in there?

Pretty much like us "nuke-em-all" conservatives?

[nerfherder]

Borscht, I actually tend to agree with you.

You seem to be saying that with out us extremists (ie people with strong opinions) there would be no opinions.

That is the same as saying the extremes define the middle.

Very true. I am philosophically centrist except when I want to nuke someone or kiss lepers.

Thanks for the amusement in advance.

[Borscht]

That is the same as saying the extremes define the middle.

Not at all. I'm saying that there is no "middle", in the sense that you use it. There is no "third way".

People's sympathies may wobble between the two distinct threads of human thought that have existed since the dawn of history. But this is reflective of the individual. His incomplete understanding of the philosophies, or lack of personal conviction.

The moderate is one who is either ignorant or incoherent. But most typically, the authentic moderates in America are merely those with a deep aversion to conflict and an associated desire to belong to what they perceive as the popular opinion.

Without concern for whether that opinion is correct or incorrect, moral or immoral. Thinking is difficult, going with the flow is easy. And if you can find a way to congratulate yourself for being stupid or lazy, more the better.

Now, this is a thread concerning people's views of the Iraqi conflict. You have presented no views so far, but only smarmy self-congratulation of your moderate (sage and wise) inclination. With associated smug insults, etc.

We're still waiting for the "middle" to state something regarding a war, and a view.

[wimp]

Originally posted by Borscht

Not at all. I'm saying that there is no "middle", in the sense that you use it. There is no "third way".

People's sympathies may wobble between the two distinct threads of human thought that have existed since the dawn of history. But this is reflective of the individual. His incomplete understanding of the philosophies, or lack of personal conviction.

Wrong! There is a third view.

Let me speak for the moderates by demonstrating a likely common morning rutine.

First we want to get a quicky weather glimse and see what the world is up to so we head on over to the nytimes
www.nytimes.com - War:Iraq

That time again huh?

Then, We want to get an "Outside" view to make sure the NY times isn't giving us fluff. So we head over to the BBC
news.bbc.co.uk - War:Iraq

Yep, it's true.

Next, we head over to checkout the strongbad e-mail
http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail.html

Ahh. Refreshing.

A:> Everquest.exe

[Borscht]

so we head on over to the nytimes

to make sure the NY times isn't giving us fluff. So we head over to the BBC

Heh heh! I can't tell if you're being serious, or if this is some very high-altitude sarcasm

If it's sarcasm, then I salute you!

Because indeed, the typical moderate would start with America's most far left journal of opinion-disguised-as-news, and then for "perspective" jump over to the far-left BBC.

The BBC is so slanted, that one of its own folks just blasted it today for the horridly biased reporting concerning the effectiveness and prospects of Britain's soldiers.

Having then consumed liberal doses of liberalism from two nations, said Moderate would assume lotus and levitate slightly off the ground in profound sagacity at his own moderation and elevation above the fray.

Then talk and vote like a liberal. For that which is not explicitly Conservative, always ends up advancing liberalism.

[nerfherder]

So its not abnormal to read the english translation of Pravda and listen to Rush Limbaugh at the same time?

[Chyran]

Originally posted by Borscht
President's don't "rule".

As I see it, Bush does. Or how would you define "rule"?

Originally posted by Borscht
If it was about oil, we could simply drop our economic sanctions and purchase Iraqi oil.

So why don't you do it and drop these silly sanction that prevents the Iraq from importing many different medicines that the people there would need urgently, or medical instruments? These sanction that prevent Organizations willing to help the Iraqi PEOPLE for going into the Iraq and do it for more than a year? The American government says "This is not a way against Iraqi people". It is not? Why are there then all these reports in TV stating that thousands will die from the impacts of this war? What is the US's prime focus? Well, the war costs 2.500.000.000 $ a day. And, according to reports, the US are going to spend 100.000.000 $ for humanitarian help. All in all. Wow, how grateful.

Originally posted by Borscht
You should be thankful we didn't apply your reasoning while we were contemplating saving your parents and grandparents from Hitler.

If you don't realize that this situation is entirely different, then there is no help for you left.

Originally posted by Borscht
It merely demonstrates how completely out of touch with reality you are.

I can give that compliment back. If you are not aware of poverty in your OWN country, and think that poverty is defined by not having two TVs and a car, you must really be blind. Did you know that in a small suburb with 1.000 people, when there are ten guys (1%) earning 1.000.000 $ per year, and all other 9.990 (99%) earning nothing, every person earns 10.000 $ a year in average. In a country where some people have more money than we all can emagine, and many people have absolutely nothing or even less, don't come and tell me about averages.

Originally posted by puppet
You admit you did not even bother to read what others have wrote. You just want to come here and post your limited view. You are the very thing that you accuse many Americans of being, you are just a tool of propaganda.

I did not read what everybody else here had to say, because I didn't have the time. Does that imply that I don't know of any facts about the situation? For you, apparently, yes. For me, this implies that you yourself are subject to a limited view. I came here to let you know what I think, based on the material I read and heard, and let me assure you, this was not a small amount. And as I stated in my post, I do not accuse many Americans of being, if you would have read it, I am concentrating my anger towards the government. Based on your statements, I would suggest you think about the possibility of your being a "puppet" of propaganda yourself, repeating what the TV stations want all Americans to believe is the only truth.

Originally posted by puppet
Ps. You know that nice building next to the 500 year old one, the one that was built after the War using aid from countries outside of Germany.

Did you know that America was helping Germany not because being nice to Germany, but to create an outpost against the Russians? Oh and another fact, that you were probably not aware of: After WW2, on March 10 1945, Eisenhower enacted the order that German captives held on German ground are no longer to be treated as prisoners of war. This meant that they didn't have to be looked after and fed any more. The international Red Cross was not allowed to enter the internment camps. And although the food depots were full, this food was not given to German captives. They died like the flies. Thanks.

Originally posted by puppet
Your welcome

[puppet]

Why don’t you tell us what you think should be done with Iraq. I listen to so many people bitch about what we are doing but they never mention what they believe should happen.

So why don't you do it and drop these silly sanction that prevents the Iraq from importing many different medicines that the people there would need urgently

The Sanctions are UN sanctions, not the United States. I believe if you look up the specific resolutions you will see that your government voted for them also. Has the US been the prime supporter of these sanctions, yes.

You might also want to read up on the oil for food program that was instituted by the UN. This program was designed to sell Iraqi oil at a fair price to supply Iraq with humanitarian aid. You might want to read some of the reports by Human Rights groups (and the UN) that state that Saddam has taken much of the supplies from this program and stockpiled it or used it to build more palaces.

I am not saying I agree with the sanctions since they obviously don’t seem to work but I don’t know what else to do. They were tried to force Saddam into compliance with the UN resolutions but he does not care that his people starve and die. The responsibility for the humanitarian crisis in Iraq rest solely on Saddam’s shoulders.

Why are there then all these reports in TV stating that thousands will die from the impacts of this war?

Thousands will die in this war, and everyone is a tragedy. But we are hoping that from this tragedy that hope and freedom will be born for the people of Iraq. Will thins happen, who knows but we cant sit on the sidelines and do nothing. Also remember that Saddam is directly responsible for the death of thousands of his own people. Before you mention the fact that you don’t think people should die over oil. You might want to research Kosovo and Somalia. We took military action in both places to try and stop brutal killings of innocents, they had no oil. Of course the outcome in both places was less that stellar but we do try to do the right things.

Did you know that America was helping Germany not because being nice to Germany, but to create an outpost against the Russians?

I am sure that was part of the reason. But how many things do you know of that have only one reason. Just like the War in Iraq has many separate reason. And even if we were just helping Germany to stop the spread of communism, what do you care we still helped you

This meant that they didn't have to be looked after and fed any more. The international Red Cross was not allowed to enter the internment camps. And although the food depots were full, this food was not given to German captives. They died like the flies.

I have never heard of this, if you would not mind please give me a few sources of the information. If this is true then it is a terrible action and has no excuse today. But I know a few veterans of the War and even today they hate Germany because of what they saw first hand. Two wrongs don’t make a right but I think this is minor compared to your actions in WWII, don’t you agree.

[puppet]

As a side note you might want to read about the lifestyle differences between the Northern Iraqi\Kurds and the people under Saddam’s direct control (those nearest Baghdad) The Sate of Iraq is broken up into 3 sections for the purpose of distributing Aid.

“Infant mortality in northern Iraq dropped by about one-fifth and child mortality by about one-third from the 1984-89 to the 1994-99 period.
In short, nutrition and health care were declining in government-controlled Iraq, but improving in the northern autonomous zone.”

In an effort to look into why the people of Iraq were experiencing a shortage of supply’s this was what was reported.

“The executive director of the Office of the Iraq Program (set up by the Security Council to manage the sanctions regime) said that more than half of the $570 million in medicines and medical supplies Iraq imported under the oil-for-food program, remained in "overflowing" government warehouses, causing shortages in clinics and hospitals throughout the country”

Here is the full report

Report

[Chyran]

Originally posted by puppet
The responsibility for the humanitarian crisis in Iraq rest solely on Saddam’s shoulders.

I agree with you that Saddam is a bad guy, and that he doesn't care much about his people. He certainly is responsible for the humanitarian crisis, too.

Originally posted by puppet
But we are hoping that from this tragedy that hope and freedom will be born for the people of Iraq.

This is so much like the one in TV who said this, while you could see the pictures and the sounds of bombs exploding on the other side of the screen... how can anybody think bringing pain and suffering to people in the name of democracy will make them like it.

I won't talk here about WW2 and Hitler any more because that's more than 50 years ago. I hate what happened, but I can't change it and I have not even been part of this.
Also there were presidents of the USA that were not so bad as Bush between not and then.

To the reports that you quoted. Here is what I have found (after searching for two minutes):
"In 1989, the last full year before Iraq invaded Kuwait, the Ministry of Health spent $500 million on medicines and medical supplies for the nation's public hospitals.
In the four years since the oil-for-food program began, the committee has allowed Iraq to import $980.4 million in health-related goods and is holding requests for $189 million more. The committee has held up orders for heart and lung machines, syringes and thermometers, ambulances and refrigerated trucks."
(http://www.commondreams.org/views/102300-103.htm)

And what do you think of the way the American troops fight their wars:
"Austrian medic Dr Eva-Maria Hobiger, whose aid project at the hospital is supported by DEA, reports that in Basra, 80 per cent of children suffering from leukemia die within a few weeks of being diagnosed due to the lack of proper medicine.

Hobiger reports alarming statistics: every third child born at the hospital in Basra is either physically disabled or severely ill; cases of cancer for Basra and the rest of southern Iraq have increased fivefold since 1990.

Dr Fathallah blames the high incidents of cancer-related illnesses experienced by the population on the use of depleted uranium by the Allied Forces during the Gulf War, which he says has polluted the soil and groundwater over the last decade. According to him, this has a severe effect on the health of the people who are experiencing increased rates of cancers."

(http://www.cwmission.org.uk/features...FeatureID=1091)

[Borscht]

on the use of depleted uranium

*yawn*

The war is on, there is nothing you can do to stop it. Coalition forces will win, and liberate Iraq from a tyrant just as we liberated Germany from a tyrant.

If you can't see the obvious parallels, then you are blind.

France and Germany will fade into the obscurity they have chosen for themselves. Once great nations now rendered irrelevant, having placed mercenary trade arrangements with Saddam above any moral concerns.

How many centuries has your people and your culture had to develop real freedom and wealth for its people? And yet look at you, dependent on a nation not even 300 years old for your defense and to prop up your sickly economy through the dollars our military boys spend in your country.

Your mutual envy-fest of American hatred seals your fate, for it is America that leads the world into the future. That establishes and upholds the moral tone of the entire planet. That sets the example of courage and fortitude against which all other nations and peoples are judged.

Sadly, Germany and France just don't have the stomach to be relevant on the global stage. Perhaps you will find solace with Syria, Iran, and the other 4th rate nations in the UN.

You can all swap lies about how horrible America is, while your best and brightest quietly apply for citizenship here.

[futuro]

Originally posted by Borscht

*yawn*

Sure, someone concerned about people's health bores you. That's nice, isn't it. You're so concerned with the US throwing around it's muscle, you don't care what the consequences are.

The war is on, there is nothing you can do to stop it. Coalition forces will win, and liberate Iraq from a tyrant just as we liberated Germany from a tyrant.

Right!!! The most powerful nation on earth decided that we are going to invade another country that hasn't invaded ours, and we're going to kill hundreds, if not thousands or more of them to "liberate" them. Then we're going to ignore them, and when the next government comes along that we don't like, we'll liberate them, too. And about the WW II "parallels" see below...

If you can't see the obvious parallels, then you are blind.

If you see parallels, then you are deluded. Germany had built up one the most powerful, if not the most powerful army in the world. He "annexed" several countries, and was aiming for much more. He had taken by force more territory than the Roman Empire. He had the most modern tactics (Blitzkrieg) and an industrial base to rival any of the world's. Saddam invaded one country, was beaten easily, and has been quiet for 12 years. His military is 1/10 of ours. He has 20 year old tanks and arms. He has virtually no industrial base. He's a third world dictator. He's no threat to anyboy, let alone the US.

Not to mention, Germany declared war on the US on 12/7/1941, right after Pearl Harbor, and before we started open hostilities against Germany. Iraq hasn't declared war against us, and if you use that tired and false "he did on 9/11/2001", you're an idiot.

France and Germany will fade into the obscurity they have chosen for themselves. Once great nations now rendered irrelevant, having placed mercenary trade arrangements with Saddam above any moral concerns.

Shall I list all the "mercenary trade arragements" the US has had with many terrible dictators, including Saddam Hussein?

After all, they haven't used bio or chem weapons for over 12 years, and at time time they were using them, they were an agent for the US against Iran. We supported and aided them during that period, and also aided Iran with arms sales. What "moral concerns" do we have?

How many centuries has your people and your culture had to develop real freedom and wealth for its people? And yet look at you, dependent on a nation not even 300 years old for your defense and to prop up your sickly economy through the dollars our military boys spend in your country.

That's right Borscht, make more enemies for the US. Flail your "US is best and you suck" whip at them. Piss them all off, untill one day all our technology, all our military superiority, all our disappering industrial base will not be a match for the will of the rest of the world that want's to throw the yoke of American Imperialism off their shoulders.

Perhaps you forogt : The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

Your mutual envy-fest of American hatred seals your fate, for it is America that leads the world into the future. That establishes and upholds the moral tone of the entire planet. That sets the example of courage and fortitude against which all other nations and peoples are judged.

Is it me, or does this sound somehat similar to several speechs by ... oh what what his name.... Adolph Schickelgruber?

Sadly, Germany and France just don't have the stomach to be relevant on the global stage. Perhaps you will find solace with Syria, Iran, and the other 4th rate nations in the UN.

Keep putting them down, Borscht. That's right, make more enemies for the US. Then you can find an exuse to invade them, too.

You can all swap lies about how horrible America is, while your best and brightest quietly apply for citizenship here.

They're not lies. You've been blinded by the government as to what kinds of nasty stuff they've been engaged in for the past 40 years. The kind of stuff that makes enemies. The kind of stuff that makes even people who are oppressed by a dictator fight back tooth and nail. Rumsfeld was in Iraq in 1983, shaking Husseins hand and offering all sorts of aid for him. And now we're trying to "change his regiem", the same way we did with Norriega. Support and aid the dictators, then "change their regime". How long do you think we can do that and still have the trust and respect of the rest of the world?

Answer : it's too late, already...

[puppet]

how can anybody think bringing pain and suffering to people in the name of democracy will make them like it.

The Revolutionary War brought pain and suffering, we are happy with the outcome. Go ask the people of Afghanistan if they are more\less happy since the Taliban have been removed. Send an e-mail to someone in Kosovo and ask them to compare their live before and after. I don’t know how the people of Iraq will view us after the War. It is entirely possible that they will hate us (most Arabs do). But the only way to hope to erase that hate is with education. We know that many Arabs hate us for the War in Iraq but we will not sit on the side and do nothing.

To the reports that you quoted. Here is what I have found (after searching for two minutes):

First off you should have taken more than “2 minutes” of searching. I can search for “2 minutes” and find an article that would support any bizarre claim I would have made. You might want to read a little bit about the source you are quoting.

Let me say this one more time. 100% of the effects of the sanctions are on Saddam’s shoulders. The UN is stuck between a rock and a hard place now that they have the sanctions in place and they have proven ineffective. If they keep the sanctions in place then the people suffer. If they remove them it gives another signal to Saddam that he can ignore the will of the global community and get away with it. It would also allow Saddam to import equipment to start to re-build his military.

And what do you think of the way the American troops fight their wars:

You might want to look at who uses Depleted Uranium bullets (hint: many nations do, Germany has the same bullets) Depleted Uranium is used for a reason, it gives the bullets greater strength to puncture armor. Nothing in international law makes the use of depleted uranium illegal. I support our troops using legal means to protect themselves. But again, we would not be firing the weapons if it were not for Saddam. Every death that may be caused by this weapon rests squarely on Saddam.

Can you tell me why you are angry about the use of depleted uranium bullets but don’t seem to care that Saddam has used chemical weapon on his own people. This is a serious question, do you really believe that the USA poses a greater threat to the people of Iraq than Saddam does.

I am also waiting for the sources you mention concerning the German POW’s who were left to die.

[Alwayslost]

Futuro,

/boggle

/boggle
/boggle


PS /boggle

I will admit, I have gotten one hell of a good laugh at what you concider to be a serious position, not to mention your obvious skill at selective vision, and you mastery of avoiding any grasp of reality.

You also are possibly more paranoid and more convinced of conspiracy than ANY SINGLE LIVING PERSON ON THE PLANET.

/em prays to God, Allah, Shiva, Odin, Ra, Poseidon and Budda that Futuro never reproduces, then realizes that with all those interesting things spouting out Futuro's yap that there is little chance of reproduction anyhow.