Map Converter (for the new cartography)

[Mr. Suspicious]

What exactly does that "Auto Map" button do?

[cattj]

i believe i covered this a few posts back... basically it turns you into a pencil and where ever you walk a line is drawn.

[Cryonic]

But will EQ run without the mapping features? If so, then it would just be like a library and you can have non-gpl code link into a gpl library and not have to give out your source.

[Raistlin]

I'm very likely out of my mind here, but is there any possiblity that Sony would make these converted maps illegal or how they'd even attempt to do so?

I'm just wondering if tomorrow we're going to see a big writeup on how the cartography system works and how if you have maps that look too similar to SEQ's maps you'll be banned...

Hey, they're desperate right? It's getting toward the end of the month, the ban quota has got to be low considering SEQ has been down right?

[Mr. Suspicious]

i believe i covered this a few posts back... basically it turns you into a pencil and where ever you walk a line is drawn.

Ah yes, I am sorry, just wanted to be sure. Sounds to me that feature will create very messy maps *tails around with mobs on his tail whilst creating lines all over the map*

I'm very likely out of my mind here, but is there any possiblity that Sony would make these converted maps illegal or how they'd even attempt to do so?

I'm just wondering if tomorrow we're going to see a big writeup on how the cartography system works and how if you have maps that look too similar to SEQ's maps you'll be banned...

Hey, they're desperate right? It's getting toward the end of the month, the ban quota has got to be low considering SEQ has been down right?

You are right, they sure will. Just as they've banned each and every EQ-Toolbox user that uses the downloadable "skin" that contains SEQ map images. Haven't you heard?

[cattj]

well i just got a chance to look at the z-filtering.... it seems that the map file uses a relative z... the height you are at where you zone in seems to be 0... the z is only related to the z value from /loc by that constant... that said unless i know the initial value for each zone there is no easy way to do this... however.... since it is a constant all of the z values are still relative to each other... so adjusting the ceiling and floor values for the z filter (which got renamed to height filter so as not to confuse the kiddies) should give you the desired effect... for example

in blackborrow the z values are off by 30 too high... but if you set your ceiling and floor to 30 the filtering should work just fine... or if you want some lines a bit higher and lower than set them higher and lower... so if you want lines 10 above you and 10 below you to show up... set ceiling to 40 and floor to 20...

again it won't always be 30 off this is just an example... you'll have to play around with them in each particular zone..

hope that helps

[Catt]

The legal issue may be why they opted for thier bulkier file format, instead of using SEQ/SINS file format.

Once each line segment is separated, it makes little difference if the colours change, as it's defined anyway.

I can't help but wonder how much of a resource hog this is going to be, damn game runs poorly now on fairly robust equipment (P4-2gig, 1 gig RAM, GF3).

Well, guess I'll have to fix the XML to look like SEQ, you just know they will have the stupid ass 'tool tips' like when you point to the up arrow tool tip says "scrolls up", like, no, really?

Would be very nice if TRACKERS got see the TRACKABLE mobs on the map, in con colours (skittles, damit), you think?

[throx]

Originally posted by Ratt
Hmm... This might be a good opportunity As with DikuMUD awhile back, a court order to allow myself or Fee to examine the EQ code to make sure it's within the bounds of the GPL could be a reality.

It would be a pain in the ass, but something that might be worth it... if they did indeed steal the SEQ code, but are not providing the source publically available, ouchies.

As I understand the GPL, since this has been included into EQ itself, they have to provide the entire source to EQ... the reason we can get away with out doing that for libEQ.a is because SEQ will run w/o libEQ.a as a standalone product... the mapping system won't run w/o EQ as a standalone product, thus the entire code base must be made available.

First, you'd have to sue Sony. That's not a particularly nice prospect to begin with.

Secondly, just because maps look the same doesn't mean the code is remotely close. It's far more likely that they'll just show up with some source code that has little resemblance to the SEQ stuff and countersue you for something they dream up, not to mention having to pay their court costs if you lose.

Thirdly, the best possible outcome would be that Sony removes the Cartography system until they get a chance to rewrite it without the infringing code. You wouldn't successfully get them to release the EQ source.

Fourthly, you'd have to use your own names to sue. Exactly how long do you think SEQ would last once they subpoena every SEQ author by real name and ban every account they find associated with it?

Lastly, libEQ.a is a tricky case that I'd hate to have to defend as being strictly within the bounds of "GPL". It *does* link against SEQ code and therefore by the terms of the GPL is "derivative" even though SEQ can operate independantly of it. No one cares though.

Disclaimer: IANAL. I don't even play one on TV.

I don't think it's worth it. If I were in your position I'd take imitation as the sincerest form of flattery and possibly even move the SEQ code over to reading the EQ style maps.

[Ratt]

Originally posted by throx
Secondly, just because maps look the same doesn't mean the code is remotely close. It's far more likely that they'll just show up with some source code that has little resemblance to the SEQ stuff and countersue you for something they dream up, not to mention having to pay their court costs if you lose.

There are very few laws (and I mean *VERY* few) that allow for the winning party to collect legal/court costs in a court battle. That's an urban myth from hell. If you go to court, you pay. Period. Doesn't matter whether you win or lose.

Thirdly, the best possible outcome would be that Sony removes the Cartography system until they get a chance to rewrite it without the infringing code. You wouldn't successfully get them to release the EQ source.

Doesn't matter, assuming it went off without a hitch, the code was released, and thus, the code at that point in time needs to be made publically available... as defined strictly by the GPL. But then again, I'm sure there are legal loopholes that could be used to prevent that.

Fourthly, you'd have to use your own names to sue. Exactly how long do you think SEQ would last once they subpoena every SEQ author by real name and ban every account they find associated with it?

So what? SOE can blow me ... I'll take my 7 accounts and go elsewhere. Won't make any difference to me, and they'll lose a chunk of change a month... Win/win for me.

Lastly, libEQ.a is a tricky case that I'd hate to have to defend as being strictly within the bounds of "GPL". It *does* link against SEQ code and therefore by the terms of the GPL is "derivative" even though SEQ can operate independantly of it. No one cares though.

So what if it links against the SEQ code? Technically speaking, it doesn't link to the SEQ code, the SEQ code links to it, and the libEQ.a blackbox spits out an answer... Regardless, even if it did link into SEQ, nothing in the libEQ file was GPL'd, and thus doesn't fall under that license. It's a stand alone library for use by SEQ, not the other way around. External libraries for software have already been tested in court, I doubt this would turn out any different.

I don't think it's worth it. If I were in your position I'd take imitation as the sincerest form of flattery and possibly even move the SEQ code over to reading the EQ style maps. [/B]

Didn't say it would be worth it ... but it's something to ponder.

[Spook]

Would be interesting to run Ratt's idea by EFF and the DikuMUD folks for comments.

[LordCrush]

Provided that after the LoY there will be many people make maps it probably would be nice to have a tool to convert from EQ-Maps to SEQ-Maps

-- just a thought

[Hobo]

Actually Ratt your statement regarding the payment of court costs isn't quite right. While it is true that there are very few LAWS forcing the losing party to pay court costs, it is a frequent occurence to see a judge award court cost damages and attorney fees to the winning party, IF the winning party was the defendent and the judge determines the suit had little or no merit. There are also certain statutes providing for relief of court and attorney fees for frivolous lawsuits or other legal proceedings considered unwarranted by the court.

However, more often than not, the final court costs and attorney fees are split amongst both parties based on a formula administered by the judge. Sometimes this is in the favor of one or the other parties, but most often it's a 50/50 split. So if one side paid $10,000 for their attorney and the other side paid $20,000, it's not unusual to see both parties pay out $15,000, plus equal amounts for court costs.

Edit - I should note that this is in reference to civil cases.

[throx]

There are very few laws (and I mean *VERY* few) that allow for the winning party to collect legal/court costs in a court battle. That's an urban myth from hell. If you go to court, you pay. Period. Doesn't matter whether you win or lose.

Unless the judge decides the case is frivolous and charges you court costs. Happens all the time in civil cases.

Doesn't matter, assuming it went off without a hitch, the code was released, and thus, the code at that point in time needs to be made publically available... as defined strictly by the GPL. But then again, I'm sure there are legal loopholes that could be used to prevent that.

The most likely course of action would be that Sony would be found in breach of the GPL and have to pay damages as well as remove the offending code from their product. A judge would simply force them to either release their code *or* remove the offending code.

So what? SOE can blow me ... I'll take my 7 accounts and go elsewhere. Won't make any difference to me, and they'll lose a chunk of change a month... Win/win for me.

I figured that much. Whether the other SEQ devs all feel the same way or not, having them all banned would pretty quickly put the SEQ project on ice - or at least slow it down significantly.

For the libEQ.a problem, the GPL states that any code shipped in the same executable must be GPL'd. From the GPL FAQ:

Combining two modules means connecting them together so that they form a single larger program. If either part is covered by the GPL, the whole combination must also be released under the GPL--if you can't, or won't, do that, you may not combine them.

Of course, that's just the author of the license's view. He may not be correct.

;-)

[Ratt]

For the libEQ.a problem, the GPL states that any code shipped in the same executable must be GPL'd. From the GPL FAQ:

Combining two modules means connecting them together so that they form a single larger program. If either part is covered by the GPL, the whole combination must also be released under the GPL--if you can't, or won't, do that, you may not combine them.

Of course, that's just the author of the license's view. He may not be correct.

That's just it... that doesn't apply to libEQ.a

libEQ is not provided with SEQ. It is the end users responsibility to procure libEQ and link with it. Thus, as it's the end user linking the two, nothing in the GPL is violated, as the GPL doesn't cover end user USE, only distribution.

That's why libEQ.a isn't hosted on Sourceforge and hosted by, what effectively amounts to, a disinterested source. I realize that casey is nominally a dev, and HAS contributed to SEQ, but that, and the fact that he happens to host libEQ.a are to seperate issues, not part of the same legal arguement.

[throx]

Fair point, Ratt.

This makes any binary snapshot illegal though and gives you fantastic ammunition against the people providing the SEQ machines - they are breaking the GPL if they can't provide you with the source for libEQ.a. If you really want to start tossing lawsuits around then there's a much better place to start than Sony.