To everyone complaining about the flaming...

[Ratt]

Ok... I'm willing to consider "moderating" this forum a bit more, but I'd like to hear some guidelines on exactly what ya'll are wanting.

Typically, as you've all seen, the same question gets asked time and time again... and a little searching will reveal the answer. However, as an experiment, I will be willing to make this forum, or create a new forum that is "Flame free."

Where you can ask any question you want without fear of being flamed, and anyone who flames in that forum will have thier post moved and smacked around a bit. If'n ya'll are thinkin' somethin' like that will fly, then fine, I'll be more than happy to do it, however, it seems it's going to quickly get mired down in a bunch of junk posts. But I'd like to be proved wrong on that.

So do ya'll want this forum to be like that, or do you want a new forum?

[Amadeus]

I think a forum like that would be a good idea. I think you could avoid some of the headache by making it a "development" forum, where only development related questions would be asked, leaving the "help" forum for the newbie installation, etc.. questions.

Just put a disclaimer up that says something like "Do not post questions here until you have used SEQ for at least a few weeks or unless you are a seasonsed programmer asking development questions."

[Lyroschen]

I like the idea of a "trash" free forum. Hopefully, without all the junk posts, the devs will actually be willing to give more information.

I agree the Dev forum would be the best of the existing forums for this idea. I would like to see flame-bait posts moved to R^6, general questions/discussion moved to help or general as appropriate, and un-productive posts simply removed.

[Kimbler]

Yes, Yes, Yes please. Since it is going to take some effort on your part Ratt do whatever is easiest for you. Prolly a "NO FLAME Help Desk Forum" . That way those that get there thrill jumpin on the folks can still use the regular help desk to misbehave.

[Alfred]

I think it is a good idea.

[gremlinz]

If you need any help with the time consuming tasks of moderating it, which will turn in to a project of epic pporportions greater then keeping seq running, I volunteer.

[wfj5444]

I have a question about compling QT...

Kidding..

Honestly its a good idea IMO. But I agree that it should be limited to How-to kind of questions and with an expectation of less precise or quick help. In otherwords, first line tech support rather than the current help forum that should be like 3rd level.

But if moderating ismore work for you or don't have the people to do it in your stead then I would say don't do it.

[Mr. Suspicious]

Disallowing a community to set their standards themselves and setting up their policies and other "cultural" environmental variables, is a sure way of destroying it Ratt.Even if the way a community chooses to police itself is by flaming. Be honnest here tho. I haven't seen a flame, a REAL flame here for over 2 years. Only people that complain about flames are those that cannot stand the fact that others point them to obvious spots for help, spots they know they could've thought off themselves, and due to that get worked up and see everything as a flame...

"Hello!"

Disallowing any form of communication that _could_ be regarded a flame (yet isn't) is the best way to scare away and get rid of the most valued members of the community IMO. "Hey! Have you considered reading the FAQ?" could be regarded as a flame, also as a very well meant pointer in the right direction, aimed at helping the individual by being just helpfull enough to get him on the way and "help the man how to catch fish".

Pointing people to the spot they can find the answer to what they look for (the FAQ, documentation and yes, the almighty "SEARCH" ~a lot of people have been helped simply by being pointed out that there is such a thing as a search feature on this board~) often results in flame by "anti-use-search" kiddies, the person that asked the question in the first place and wants to be spoon fed everything instead of following advice given, and those that advocate a highly moderated forum. The latter often don't actually know what they ask for, because in most cases their posts and replies will be moderated away....

Do as you wish, but please, before jumping the bandwagon, use your noggin and consider the consequences with thought.

Once again, I'd like to point people like Kimbler (in regard to "the hand" sig) to the pre-face section of: http://www.smoothwall.org/download/p....9/doc.faq.pdf

[Alfred]

Mr. suspicious - You are an Asshole!!


reset your counter....

[fester]

If the choice is between changing this forum or making a new one, I vote for making a new one. Name it something like "New User Development Forum"?

I understand that the proposal will create a new forum to be a place where people can ask ignorant questions. So other users who may find themselves asking the same question can find the same question asked by someone. Is the theory that other new users may answer it.

Whatever the name of the forum, if flaming is discouraged, I would not ever read the forum. It would be my assumption that any forum of this type would have a very high noise rating on a signal to noise ratio. It would likely be a waste of time to 90 percent or better of the readers here. Or did I miss the point?

[Amadeus]

Of course, no forum of any sort will help beginner developers if the developers in the "know" are unwilling to read or respond to it. I don't mean this as a flame, but many quality questions simply go unanswered in the current forums. For example, there is a thread where Casey took the time to really explain through a packet sniffing thing; however, no one has stepped up to explain how the encryption is working so that we can make use of the data we find.

I find that a lot of the questions lately are a 'hacking' nature, and ones that are damn hard to find answers for in a book or a website. However, if anyone here knows of a website that really explains packet sniffing (and how to use it to one's advantage), etc... I think many of us would be very appreciative.

Learning the C++ is easy, learning how the opcodes/memory structures is that part that is somewhat exotic.

[Lyroschen]

My hope is for the "flame-free" forum to be non-newbie issues. N00b questions would get moved out of the forum, as would other inappropriate posts. The ones remaining would be (in theory) applicable to the title. This could be a moderator's hell, though.

If the intent is to create a forum where folks can ask questions they're just too lazy to search on, and no one is expected to tell them to go search, then I'd have to agree it likely won't be worth reading.

If the Dev forum is reserved for development discussion, and posts that don't belong there are moved, then I doubt there would be much reason for flames in that forum. The policing would consist of moving posts that didn't belong. Once moved, posts would be subject to whatever handling was necessary by the population. That would dramatically improve the signal to noise ratio for that forum.

edit: I read the preface Mr. S was mentioning. For those who don't want to read it, it basically outlines a set of expectations before posting questions to the "hacker" community. To paraphrase, "Don't come to our country club wearing a t-shirt."

---
my two coppers

[grimjack]

I don't think a new forum or new rules is needed. As far as the RTFM posts are concerned, however, I think they are almost as redundant the questions people don't search for. In my opinion just ignoring these posts is the best reaction. Posting RTFM is not going to get a lazy person to change his ways and really just keeps a thread active that should probably just drop off the forum. If you think about it every "use the search" type reply just bumps the post. Next thing you know it's going back and forth until someone gets fed up seeing it and answers the post. Also, most lazy people will be less likely to stay around if their posts don't get a single reply and those who are not lazy will eventualy find the answer on their own. Oh and as to pointing people to the search feature or the faq... they will find it on their own with just a little effort.

Thanks

[seqmage]

Originally posted by Ratt


So do ya'll want this forum to be like that, or do you want a new forum?

I would say start a new forum. There are a few questions I have bout various linux things.. like etheral and tcpdump but don't ask because I know the RTFM and SEARCH flames would be flying.

Knowing that I could ask questions with out being flamed would be nice.

As far as the flaming, Its good for someone with only one post, to get flamed.. there is a lesson in shock value, and being called lazy or an idiot. SEQ was never ment for EVERYONE? Those willing to learn and install. Now there are some great guides and its becomming easier to setup/install/ and get SEQ running. But when someone cant read the left hand side of the screen where it says Status of RED.. and they post "Is SEQ working?" they are begging to be flamed. This is a community where we do get to know each other(yes its limited) and flaming is part of that.

My vote is new forum.

[Kimbler]

In reading the post this really seems to boil down to as someone aluded to a "signal to noise" perspective. It seems to be a debate of who has the right to be "signal" and who has a right to be "noise".

The newbs (me included here), Look at it this way:

We ask a question (signal). The flamers swoop in and unload for 10 post to RTFM (noise). Other newbs read the question (signal)and think "I was wondering that too" or "wow I can actually answer that" but have to navagate through countless RTFM/Search (noise). We see the flames post we have to sift through to get information or anwser a question as lots of noise. We also get the clear impression we are not welcome.

The flamers look at it this way:

We(newbs) ask a question (since it has been ask before or is somewhere on the Web) it is considered noise. The flamers read the newb question and add their RTFM/Search post (more signal). They resent having to sift through all the neeb questions to get to the real hard never been ask questions.

So ,

Is noise, questions ask before , from newbs (and usually answered by newbs since it is one of the few times we can contribute)?

Or

Is noise , RTFM/Search screamed over ans over from the flamers?

Another way of looking at is:

If we newbs prevail you end up with a forum full of questions , some repeated but answered just the same and no flames or :

Let the flamer prevail and you end up with a forum with a few questions and LOTs of flames and newbs walking away from the SEQ project because of the hostility.


We newbs do have an advantage or ability the flamers do not, we can read a post and see very quickly if it is a question of interest and decide to read on. We also can see a flame in the first words and ignore it and move on the next post for new information or contribute an answer. The advantage is we can attentuate the noise by ignoring the flamers to some degree.

The flamers for whatever reason do not seem to have this ability...simply ignore the newb question and move on. It appears a newb question is almost like a unresistable drug that forces them to add a post and waste thier time. The very time they repeatly say we (newbs )force them to waste reading repeated questions.


The real issue for me is not the flamers : I ask my questions and ignore them completly....I have thick skin. The real issue here is and will continue to be....The SEQ project has alot of work ahead and flaming the newbs does run off new much needed talent. Let the flamers rule and you run the risk of SEQ dying from the lack of new folks taking up the cause. Asking the flamers to cool it will likely encourage folks to take the plunge and jump on board since taking those first few steps into will not result in a big flame smack down.