To everyone complaining about the flaming...

[BlueAdept]

Kinbler, you should look at your posts that you have done.

If you do, you will notice that you asked a few questions and everyone was answered. A lot of them I also chipped in my advice too.

You will also notice that you helped a couple people.

Then after that, you start a crusade on bashing people who happen to have slightly negative context in their messages.

I am a network engineer, but I also do a lot of help desk. The only way that people learn is from doing it themselves. We have some people who call us on a daily basis wanting us to do their job because they are unwilling to learn. We try to walk them through a couple times and if that fails then we report them that they are unfit to do their job. It is the same thing here. 90% of the questions are answered politely and concisely, but the other 10% just want everything given to them without using one single brain cell.

Since you consider telling people to use the search key a flame, you will notice that some of the Devs and other people who have contributed to the project in some way are guilty of telling someone to search and probably every one of them has helped many times more than they have told someone to search.

[Kimbler]

Well I am moving on, The debate has had both sides presented. In Summary:

Those FOR the new forum:

What we would like:

We newbs would like to ask any question we want. We know it can get answered or ignored completely. We don’t want to have to sift through rude countless RTFM/SEARCH posts.

The result:

If we get it the SEQ project get lots of questions many dumb, stupid and beyond the scope of the forum but we create a forum to foster the exchange of information that MAY, MAY trigger a new approach or maybe a break through that extends the life of the SEQ Project.

THOSE to keep thing as is:

We want to be able to post countless RTFM/SEARCH posts. We don't want to sift through countless dumb stupid questions beyond the scope of the forum.

The result:

Since I could not of said it any better I will quote high_jeeves:


”

“The bottom line is, these forums get less than 1 new and relevant question a month”

[wfj5444]

/Agree High Jeeves

If you don't spend your time learning/reading, why should I spend my time answering. My previous point from before was either Flame or Answer. Why bother with both?

If you want an answer then look around and find it. If you do like I know I have in the past and not paid enough attention to what I was reading, post a dumb question, then you deserve what you get.


The more I think about this whole deal the more I come to the opinion:

Ratt, dont bother. Keep it like it is.

[high_jeeves]

I love the general idea that the guy who asks the questions like "how to i install showeq" is somehow going to be the genious developer that saves ShowEQ after a few posts on a message board.

Let me clue in those of you that arent software developers: Reading the manual/searching the web/searching forums is about 1/3rd of ANY decent engineers job. If somebody doesnt have the capacity to find answers on this forum, they are a LONG way away from being a decent engineer.

Here's a tip: If you want to learn about packet sniffing and decryption try the following: RTFC.. thats right.. READ THE FUCKING CODE. Its all in there.. thats how all but one or two of the people on this project learned how it works, and how to contribute to it. If reading the code doesnt mean anything to you, then you are a LONG WAY from being able to do packet decryption/decoding. If you dont have a good understanding of C++, ASM, memory allocation schemes, UDP, encryption, and compression algorithms, you have a LONG WAY to go before you can participate in decrypting the stream. If you think that you are going to learn these things on a message board, you are sadly mistaken. Read the code, if you have specific questions on what a peice of code is doing, or why it is doing it, post it... you might get an answer... The people that cannot seem to install ShowEQ with 5 walkthroughs and an FAQ sitting in front of them are NOT the people saving this project... they are the people killing it.

Flaming is not bullying, it is maintaining a comunity standard.. as I said before.. it happens both online and offline..

People who behave as the RTFM/SEARCH types CAN"T get away with it in real life. Bully folks in real life at the level these guys do one of several things happen:

1. They get beatup.
2. They get fired
3. They get ostracised

Actually, you are 100% wrong here... enter the real world.. get a job... those people that cant find any answers given a multitute of sources for those answers are the ones that get fired... It happens all the time... there are thousands of libriaries and toolkits that are used by engineers every day. A significant number of those engineers NEVER have to ask any questions about those libraries/toolkits. Many of those libraries and toolkits have significantly less documentation and support that ShowEQ. Those engineers that waste all of their time by asking quetsions before they do research are the ones that get fired, or get hit first in the lay-off list.

--Jeeves

[old_fart]

Over on the MQ boards, they don't do a lot of flaming... so what do they do? They answer the same old stupid question over and over and over and over because peeps are stuip and lazy and will not help themselfs. Ok... the flaming here has been a bit much, but unless you want to see the same post every hour for weeks on end asking the same lame questions, find some middle ground.

I say flame on.....

[BlueAdept]

Ok here are the statistics:

Number of posts that say to use the search since Apr 23 there have been only 4 posts in all of the forums telling people to search (I did a search for search). All of the posts telling them to search helped by telling them where/what to search for.

Since Apr 23 there has only been 1 person who told someone to RTFM.

Lets look at it from the other side now:

Number of posts since Apr 23 complaining about people who tell people to do searches (excluding this thread): 1 full thread about it and 3 posts by Kimbler complaining about it.

Number of posts since Apr 23 complaining about people who tell people to RTFM (excluding this thread): 2 and one of them was from Kimbler.


Dont believe me? USE THE DAMN SEARCH!

Edit: spelled Kimblers name wrong

[Alfred]

Well I am not 'sucking up', but he is 100% correct! It is what I tried to say in some of my posts before, perhaps not as well said...


There is a level of understanding that takes a lot of learning. All the well wishing and hoping and good intentions doesn't mean shit. If you simply don't have the raw experience.... you have a long ways to go. yes there are people in the world that have such a high iq that they can make a quantum leap and having some information posted in this forum would help kick start them. Even if that is the case, I think the work involved in trying to tailor answers so that people might understand is way to much work.

Like I said before, this isn't a case of i'm better than you... it is a case of I simply know more and it would take to much to try and explain how to get where I am. (I'm not talking about myself here ) If you don't already have the magic... I can't give it to you.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by old_fart
Over on the MQ boards, they don't do a lot of flaming... so what do they do? They answer the same old stupid question over and over and over and over because peeps are stuip and lazy and will not help themselfs. Ok... the flaming here has been a bit much, but unless you want to see the same post every hour for weeks on end asking the same lame questions, find some middle ground.

I say flame on.....

The other thing to keep in mind... They have a framework that is in place... that is working with decrypted data. Most of the real 'hard' work has been done by verant.

It still requires work, obviously, but it isn't rocket science compared to working with the stream.

[Thom_Merrilin]

In my view, adding this new forum would be a good thing. Those who want to keep things the same, can simply ignore the new forum... but adding a new and likely high traffic area of communication can only be a good thing.

Sure, there will be a lot of redundant questions... but I'm sure there are still some people that still feel good when they post the answer to someones question, no matter how simple it was.

I mean heck... 3 years ago, I knew absolutely nothing about linux, but thru extensive reading in the forums here(Yeah, been lurking for a long time), I've learned to install linux, download and compile SEQ without problems. I can prolly even answer a few questions too.

In any case, this new forum would be a good idea... The next uber programmer might not have any linux experience, but be a true wizard with code. It's not me... but I'd sure be willing to try and help.


-Thom

[SeqTester]

If there would there be a way to remove that forum from the search. So that those of us that actually use it could still save the time of not going through the same posts over and over that do not even link to the post there are looking for.

[grimjack]

Originally posted by high_jeeves
Actually, this is 100% analagous to things that happen in real life. If I am at work, and I have spent months working on a project, and have included a significant amount of documentation, I expect people to read the documentation BEFORE they come and ask questions. If they dont, they get a very direct RTFM.

Why? Because they are wasting time and money. In this case, they are only wasting time, but it is free time, which is rare and valuable to many people. I dont understand why people get so insulted by the RTFM posts... if the answer is in the manual.. guess what? You should have read it BEFORE you wasted everyones time and bandwidth by posting a question...

--Jeeves

I agree with everything Jeeves says here except for a few things. Why waste time posting a response to stupid questions? Why waste time and people's bandwidth bumping a thread that should probably just fall off the board? A stupid question with no replies wastes far less time and bandwidth. Posting a reply at all just gives the person a reason to respond. If someone won't take the time to search, posting "use search" or "RTFM" is not going to change that. That same person will do the same thing next time he encounters a problem. It's just going to cause that thread to take up more space and more time. I'd rather read a stupid thread one time than see it on my list of updated threads over and over. I really don't think "RTFM" or "use search" is a flame at all. I just think it should go without saying and those that can't figure it out don't deserve any acknowledgement.

Oh and it's my opinion that a person ignored will give up faster than one who gets ANY type of response.

Thanks

[fester]

Top reasons why people post RTFM and Use the Search replies:

1) To educate the people reading and thinking "you know that is a good question."
2) To make the one who asked the question go away and never return.
3) To make something of the time we lost while reading a question that should not have been asked.

Top reasons why people post these "bad" questions:

1) They know the answer or don't really want to know the answer, but ask the question to be a bully and a pest. (This is the same reason some post nudes in forums devoted to people that collect barbie dolls?)

2) They have read the "how do I install Linux" FAQ and say, gee that sounds hard. There must be a simpler way. I shall ask for the simple way, because it must exist. (They presume that no one has asked for the simple way before now?)

3) They think they are special and the rules do not apply to them. Others should do all their work for them and this includes logging into their linux system to compile, configure, and debug their ShowEQ setup. (Now High Jeeves, log into my Linux machine and FIX the problem now, you are my slave.)

4) If they really are that ignorant. (Maybe they are a housewife and they know nothing about computers? They should have directed this question to someone they know in real life instead of posting it to the world and wasting the time of a larger set of people. By the way, ignorant != dumb. At least not all the time.)

Top reasons people may defend the people posting "bad" questions and bash the people posting "RTFM" or "use the search" answers:

1) They wanted to ask the same question but they were afraid of being RTFM'd.

2) They don't understand why these questions are "bad".

3) They don't answer questions and don't understand that if these questions were more common, the people answering the really good questions would leave the forum. (Because the ratio of good to bad questions would lower to the point that there is no point in looking for a "good" question.)

Top reasons why people ANSWER questions:

1) They feel good about helping others. The question is new or has merit. (There may be others with the same questions on their minds.)

2) They feel in the mood to communicate. This can take the form of passing on knowledge one has to another.

This is not an all inclusive list, but I feel it likely covers the majority of reasons for each action.

[high_jeeves]

Oh and it's my opinion that a person ignored will give up faster than one who gets ANY type of response.

Unfortunately, in my experience, this just isnt true. The people who post the stupid questions are the same ones that bump there own questions (over and over again in some cases) because they think it just got missed, or ignored. Take a look at the EQ technical forums... ALOT of the posts consist of nothing other than "Bump". Posting a RTFM/STFW/FAQ post lets the user know "we are here, we read your question, now stop being a lazy ass." I see this behavior on a number of forums I read, many of which are moderated. People rarely post a question, then just go away if no follow ups are made...

--Jeeves

[Mr. Suspicious]

Originally posted by Alfred
If you don't already have the magic... I can't give it to you.

Originally posted by Alfred

Mr. suspicious - You are an Asshole!!


reset your counter....

100% BS in both cases... Even if you don't have any knowledge at all, you _can_ find everything you need on the boards already... let me emphatize that: every single little piece of info you would ever need to know about ShowEQ already exists on these forums. It's simple to get it: Use the search and read the available documentation and the source.

Some time ago I posted a response to someone asking how to install QT, I said he should have a look into the INSTALL.newbies file found in the ShowEQ directory. This "gentleman" responded with a non flame response, that would be considered a "flame" by the anti-RTFM right wingers, and basically said: "Don't give useless answers".

From the INSTALL.newbies file:

1.3 Downloading qt-3.0.5
Download qt-3.0.5 at ftp.trolltech.com and extract it to it's own
directory (and rename the directory).

Code:

[]# cd /usr/lib/
[]# wget --passive ftp ftp://ftp.trolltech.com/qt/source/qt...e-3.0.5.tar.gz
[]# tar zxvf qt-x11-free-3.0.5.tar.gz
[]# mv qt-x11-free-3.0.5 qt-3.0.5



1.4 Editting linux-g++-shared
edit the file "mkspecs/linux-g++/qmake.conf and change all
references to "gcc" to "gcc3" as well as "g++" to "g++3"
(lines 12, 27, 47, and 48). save your changes (ctrl-o, ctrl-x)

Code:

[]# pico -w /usr/lib/qt-3.0.5/mkspecs/linux-g++/qmake.conf



1.5 NOTE TO USERS WITH A HIGHER VERSION OF gcc

This document assumes you have gcc3 and g++3 executable on your system
(as included in Red Hat 7.2). Depending on the distro (in other words:
anything other then Red Hat 7.2), which RPMs you used and the phase of
the moon, you may only have gcc<specified-version-number> or
g++<specified-version-number> executables.

Change everywhere in this document where it says gcc3 to gcc<version>
and g++3 to g++<version>

To see the version numbers for your installed compiler, please follow
the next steps:

- Open a console and type "gcc" then press the <TAB> key once or twice.
This will attempt to "auto complete" what you are typing. Pressing it
twice should list all the options you have.

Result:

[]# gcc
gcc gcc-3.1
[]#

Do NOT use plain gcc, you need at least gcc3 or a higher version. In this
example you'd use "gcc-3.1" and "g++-3.1" instead of the mentioned "gcc3"
and "g++3"

If you do not see any other versions of gcc then plain "gcc"on your
system, then you did not install all specified packages as mentioned
in step 1.2



1.6 Compiling QT
"export QTDIR" and the "MOC" environmental and configure and compile
qt-3.0.5 with the -thread option. Optionally you can use "gmake -j2"
to possibly speed up compile. If you have 2 cpus then you can even
use use "gmake -j3"

** this compile will take a LONG time, possibly as few as 1 hour and as
many as 6 depending on cpu speed. **

Code:

[]# cd /usr/lib/qt-3.0.5
[]# export QTDIR=/usr/lib/qt-3.0.5
[]# export PATH=$QTDIR/bin:$PATH
[]# export MANPATH=$QTDIR/man:$MANPATH
[]# export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$QTDIR/lib:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH
[]# ./configure -thread
[]# gmake
[]# gmake install


You might find that adding the line "/usr/lib/qt-3.0.5/lib" to the file
"/etc/ld.so.conf" then running "ldconfig" will help you.

Code:

[]# echo "/usr/lib/qt-3.0.5/lib" >> /etc/ld.so.conf
[]# ldconfig

/Sarcasm

You see, my "RTFM" wasn't realy helpfull in any way. He wouldn't be able to setup QT in any way if he followed my advice. I wasted bandwith and his precious time by not feeding the info step-by-step into him.

/Sarcasm

Face it, answering questions by pointing people into the right direction usually isn't gratefull. Quentioneers will badmouth you, call you an asshole and to top it off... won't be helped in any way, even tho that they, if followed the advice: RTFM they WOULD have been helped.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by Mr. Suspicious
100% BS in both cases... Even if you don't have any knowledge at all, you _can_ find everything you need on the boards already... let me emphatize that: every single little piece of info you would ever need to know about ShowEQ already exists on these forums. It's simple to get it: Use the search and read the available documentation and the source.
......

Dude!

I think you are misreading what I was poking fun at....

One... we aren't talking about simply installing the app. Most of that discussion has been about learning how to decode the data stream. Get it?

Two... that comment of mine about 'you are an asshole' was a poor attempt at humor. You made a comment about how you haven't seen a real flame in a long time. I gave you a real flame and told you to reset your counter / timer.