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View Full Version : Non-passive SEQ opinions?



BitShift
02-11-2003, 05:07 AM
Back when SoE changed the way encryption was handled, and Ratt "let loose the dogs of war", the basis of the outrage was that SoE had basically dug their own grave for an eventual windows version of SEQ to be released, because they had forced developers to switch to a non-passive form of decryption. (ie, you need to run some software on the windows machine in order for SEQ to work, so why not run ALL of the software on the windows machine?)

My understanding is that the most recent changes in the way the packets are compressed are basically a "good thing" as far as conserving bandwidth is concerned. But I'm also pretty sure that SoE's devs weren't shedding any tears over the new netcode conveniently breaking SEQ. My question is this:

In some ways, these most recent changes are yet another push by SoE towards digging their own grave in the non-passive direction. In another thread, Ratt expressed a certain amount of confidence in the dev's ability to crack this new netcode, but I doubt it's exactly a cake walk. So I'm sure more and more people with coding skills are asking themselves "why bother with all this encryption/compression bulls***?"

I'm sure we would all suffer from a public windows version of SEQ being released, but I doubt anyone would suffer from it more than SoE would. Because of that, SoE (in my opinion) should be more careful of how far they push in the non-passive direction. I'm curious as to what opinions the rest of you have about this. Does SoE -deserve- to have a WinSEQ released as a result of their changes?

To make this all seem a little bit more "real", let me say this: I have little coding experience, and some might even venture to call me a 'script kiddie.' But regardless of that, In only one day I was able to take the features of MacroQuest, combine them with visual basic, and have what amounts to a one-frame-at-a-time-windows-SEQ.

If you enable the telnet server in MQ, you can use it to allow a windows-based program to communicate with EQ over tcp. I won't be posting the code for that. On the MQ side, all you need to do is write a short macro. Mine looks like this:



#turbo 10

Sub Main
/filter macros none
/varset l0 $id(0)
/varset l1 0
:Loop
/varadd l1 1
/echo WINSEQ,$l1,$spawn($l0,name,clean) $spawn($l0,surname),$spawn($l0,level),$spawn($l0,c lass),$spawn($l0,race),$spawn($l0,gender),$spawn($ l0,x),$spawn($l0,y),$spawn($l0,z)
/varset l0 $spawn($l0,next)
/delay 0
/if $l0>0 /goto :Loop
/filter macros all
/return


On the windows side, you just parse through any line containing "WINSEQ" and add the details (name, level, class, etc) to the spawnlist, then just draw all of the spawns on the screen. Granted, it's not automatically updated, you need to re-run the macro anytime you want updated positions, etc.. But the fact remains: it's much easier to read the spawnlist from memory than it is to decode their encrypted/compressed network data. And if it is THIS easy to do, wouldn't it be in SoE's best interests to keep a passive SEQ viable?

Ratt
02-11-2003, 09:32 AM
You've pretty much hit the nail square on the head.

With non-passive client "thingies" running all over the windows machine, there are a miriad of ways to make a SEQ type program... as you've just demonstrated.

While there are still some advantages to a passive type system, it's getting to the point where it is just a matter of preference and not any real advantage to speak of, other than the fact that it's less detectable. If handled properly, the detection can be made to be a monumental pain in the ass for SOE. So it's six of one and half dozen of the other...

I am, quite frankly, suprised we haven't seen a windows version pop up yet. Revisionist historians aside, I never said we (meaning the SEQ-L) dev team would be releasing a windows version. The idea was bandied about privately, but ultimately, we decided against it. I did, however, expect some enterprising individuals to go ahead with it. There, I was wrong, so far... but I still think it's only a matter of time.

However, it's also entirely possible that EQ is getting dull for a lot of people, especially the brightest sparks, and their attention is elsewhere... thus no one really cares for a windows version anymore. PoP really killed EQ for me, I think it blows chunks. The idiotic flagging system has cut my play time down from a ridiculous number of hours per week to practically nothing... and the combat system sucks too.

Say what you will, I *liked* the 45 minute fights, where your collective HP starts to dip, and it looks like you may lose, but then you get a lucky heal, or res, or something, and you start picking it back up. Made for much better edge of the seat action... wondering if you were going to win.

Now, it's just throw as much shit at the mob as you can and pray it dies before you do... Rallos Zek and Sol Ro is a prime example of this. Full bore on his ass, and pray... doesn't require a lot of skill, just a lot of DPS. Actually, a better example is that stupid glass dragon in PoV... what a load of crap that fight is.

Dedpoet
02-11-2003, 09:58 AM
Orignally posted by throx in this (http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2906) thread:


I ported it to Windows but I don't feel like releasing it. Sorry.

There is a post somewhere else of a screenshot of a Windows version...I'm too lazy to find it. I bet there are quite a few ports running around out there that we don't know about.

Edit: I meant to add that I would probably use a Windows version if it were available, but I would be leary about using a non-passive version on the same box. I certainly don't dislike the Linux-only status as it stands, but from a productivity standpoint, it would be great if I could have my Seq machine run Windows. It's just faster to do other things on it at the same time that way. Currently, when seq is working, I run my main character on my main machine, usually a second account character on a second machine, and then my laptop running Gentoo with Seq. If I want to check out a web page or talk in a messenger or irc channel, I can do it with Linux, but would be much more convenient with Windows for most tasks.

Do I think it should be ported and made non-passive? Nope. Would I use a passive Windows version if it were avaialable? Yep.

throx
02-11-2003, 04:53 PM
I wasn't 100% serious on that thread. Was just following the general flow of the conversation.

Whether you choose to believe me or not, I *had* a very primitive version running a long time ago on Windows - pretty much written from scratch and just using the packet headers from SEQ itself. Was kind of funky but a cute project.

One fine day I decide to upgrade my computer and plug my old HDD into the brand new ATA-66 slot on the mobo with a 40 wire connector instead of the proper 80 wire connector. 3 days of starting at a hex editor later and learning way more than NTFS than I really wanted to I resuced most of my projects from the trashed drive by rebuilding the MFT by hand. My WinSEQ project didn't make it and I kinda lost heart at reworking it.

Now and then I mess around a little with recreating it, but then I just think of all the other things I could be doing with my time and it never gets far. One day I'll get really bored and start again I guess...

My real issue is that if I was porting SEQ to Windows then I'd do a rewrite because I'd make it more "windowsy" in look and feel. I'd probably use MFC as well, just cause I'm a sicko. Even then, I'm not sure I'd ever release it to the world. Just doesn't seem worth the effort to support.

Spook
02-12-2003, 08:32 AM
I've had a windows/linux hybrid for a while. I've just been playing around with .Net seeing how the Java style JIT-like backend holds up and toying with releasing a "blackbox" SEQ that just decodes and sends a data image to a network addresss where you can roll your own SEQ viewer.

I hadn't released anything since my work was based off SEQ and at the time Ratt & Co. didn't want a Windows version. Since that is out the door now I've been thinking about releasing it as is or modifying it to be a complete Windows solution and chucking the Linux box. I'm leaning toward the latter but am in no rush and certainly don't want to release something not complimentary to the efforts the devs and other contributors put into SEQ.