EXP Chart

[high_jeeves]

I agree with the "fair solution" but not the "didn't affect anyone's existing experience"

This is clearly a matter of perspective, it didnt affect anyone's experience. Experience is the amount you are through your current level, NOT some number that you happen to know because you have access to the packet stream. If they all of a sudden decided that their experience was scaled to high and divided everyone's experience by 10, would that be a nerf? No, of course not, because you didnt move in the game.

If you can't understand the numbers I'm sorry I accept not all people are mathamatically inclined....I myself can't draw a picture worth shit.

Thanks, however, I do have a BS in Math... I understand the numbers, you however cant seem to understand anything but the numbers. The number is relevant ONLY as it relates to level. Level didnt change, so the change of the number is 100% irrelevant. You didnt move backwards. The path forwards perhaps got a bit harder, but now we are talking about a "hey, this was easier for him and now its harder for me" problem, which is 100% whining. What about them upgrading Cazic? Thats a nerf right? Some other guy was able to level from 32-36 there, I cant do it! NERF! NERF! They made it harder for me to level to 50 by taking out a zone I could use! The bastards!

My opinion is they should have said "we are taking out the hell levels, the same total xp is needed to get to level 50 as before and you stay at the same point in the level as you where in as before".

I can tell you dont play politics, and that you do contract work... this would alienate the entire fan base, all 400,000 people... that is not a good idea.. pissing off customers = bad. So far, on the boards I generally peruse, you are the ONLY person that has been upset by this change... whose way of saying it is better, yours, whioch would have pissed off everyone, or Verants, which pissed on one guy?

I have a team of developers that work for me. If I'm not confident answering a question I'm asked then I call in someone that does know. No pride lost in the fact that I don't know all the answers, but I DAMN sure know where to get the right answer if it is out there.

Now we're back to the part about RSB being 100% perfect... I have a team of people working for me, many of them have teams of people working for them.. I ask one of my managers a question, he checks with one of his people. Do I always get 100% accurate information? No, we're playing telephone here at this point.. i ask a question, the manager re-asks it (coming from his viewpoint), the question is answered, and translated to me (again, from his viewpoint). What happens? Sometimes mis-information, sometimes missing information. Does is happen often? No, not really.. At a company like Verant, with a very active customer base and 1 point of contact, will this happen ocassionally over 3 years? Yes, absolutely... Does this mean it is a maliscous lie? No, of course not...

Have you never had to tell one of the people you are contracting for: that information I gave you the other day was not correct, here is the correct information? Of course you have... Were you lying? No.. Has your contract manager ever said: well, you told us this, but this other thing seems to be the case? Of course... Were you lying? No... Lets try applying the same standard to a company that has spend countless time and energy generating a game that we have all enjoyed. I personally have been playing since Beta 4.. thats almost 3.5 years I've played this game... that beats any other video game by about 3.2 years for me... not bad for a bunch of lying bastards who are out to get us and make our lives hell!

--Jeeves

[RSB]

Jeeves STRAIGHT out you are twisting me words.


If you owned a house and had $120,000 to pay over 10 years (not considering interests) you'd have to pay $1,000. If the bank said Hey we just lost a bit over $1,000 that you paid us but we've figure away that doesn't effect you, You'll still only have 10 years left on your loan and we still consider that you only have to pay the $150,000 but we are just going to spread that $1,000 you lost over the next few months. That way we both win. What would you say? In essence this is what they've done. (that being said I agree with the changing of xp where I don’t agree with what example I’ve just given)

Experience is the amount you are through your current level

This shows me your head is in the sand. Many people don't look at where they are in terms of the current level they look at the total picture.

No, of course not, because you didn’t move in the game.

You didn’t move backwards.

The path forwards perhaps got a bit harder

You have a BS in Math and your a programmer but you can't see that those to sentences you made right next to each other are contradictory in logic?

pissing off customers = bad

I consider lying worse and give my customers better credit to accept the truth.
You did move in the game you just don't want to admit it.

This is the type of shit that pisses me off

Now we're back to the part about RSB being 100% perfect

NEVER do I imply I'm perfect. Your the one saying that I'm saying that. Show me where I say anything like that! I showed you the quote you wanted to see from Verant. I notice you've just dismissed that fact haven't you.

Verant even when faced with overwhelming evidence against statements they make don't properly investigate things and continue to say "Nope we're sure about this". That I do consider a lie. If you are negligent in looking at the facts and not getting the right information out then yes I consider that lying.

No, we're playing telephone here at this point

Your are WRONG here. Alan didn't make that statement I showed you. He went directly to the person responsible and that person made a false statement.

I've never said I haven't passed on False information but I do my best not to and if I find out its wrong I inform the customer. If I'm presented with info that disputes it I find out what is going on. I don't just ask the same person the same question and accept the same answer without any further investigation.

Lets try applying the same standard to a company that has spend countless time and energy generating a game that we have all enjoyed.

I'm applying the same standard to Verant that I provide my customers and I expect from the people that work for me. I don't expect a company I work for to accept me not doing my job properly one time because I've done a good job another.

Again lets not twists my words. The numbers I've shown are not presented to say that they shouldn't have implemented this change. I agree with the change personally.

What I don't agree with is calling it "Mathmagic" and that "didn't affect anyone's existing experience or progress." is to me deliberately misleading.

Honestly if you think misleading your employer/customer is good if you think the ends justifies the means then I consider you of very low integrity. I prefer to be straight with people I deal with. Maybe that comes from 6 years in the Marine Corps where integrity is valued. Something I have to admit is sorely lacking from a large part of the civilian population. I’ve actually quit a project because the manager told us not try to cover things up. It happens all the time Verant isn’t any different. They tell nerfs where they know they will get caught but if they think they can slip something in they do then when they get caught go “oh we forgot to tell you about that” Sometimes its an honest mistake but I can’t accept it always being a mistake because if it is then someone (figuratively, I know there is more than one person at Verant before you try to twist that) isn’t doing their job right to often. I do something wrong I admit it. All you seem to want to do is twist my word from saying that they’ve made a false statement here probably to fool most players into me complaining that overall I think that this “nerf” is bad. I agree with the “nerf” I don’t appreciate them trying to fool and mislead their customers with jargon like “Mathmagic”.

Care to try to twist my words again? You don’t do a good job of it if anyone else actually reads my post. Don’t read between my lines. If I haven’t put it in black and white I didn’t mean it.

Honestly I don’t see everyone rallying to your side supporting your idea. You just seem to want to refute and twist everything I say while I’m gave straight out information to let others decide what they want and put my view in that I agree with the nerf but don’t on how they DESCRIBED the nerf.. Want me to bold that for you?

I’d like to hear from others people that normally post to the boards on what they think of it good or bad and if they mind the terminology that was used.

RSB

[high_jeeves]

This shows me your head is in the sand. Many people don't look at where they are in terms of the current level they look at the total picture.

Could you be more wrong? The ONLY people who could POSSIBLY look at experience as more than the current amount through the current level are those with ShowEQ before the 1/330 change.. So your "many" in the quote above is probably about 100 out of 400,000... last i checked, "many" didnt describe less than 1%.

You have a BS in Math and your a programmer but you can't see that those to sentences you made right next to each other are contradictory in logic?

Please point the contradiction out to me.. harder to move forward != moving backwards. It just isnt the same thing. When they removed the manastone from the game, did everyone move backwards? No, ofcourse not... but it did get harder to move forward. They are different things.

I consider lying worse and give my customers better credit to accept the truth.

You give your customers better credit to accept the truth? Look at yourself... if they had given your version of events, how do you think the average customer would have handled this information? You havnt been paying attention to the EQ customer base at all if you think they are good at accepting the truth.

I have a team of developers that work for me. If I'm not confident answering a question I'm asked then I call in someone that does know. No pride lost in the fact that I don't know all the answers, but I DAMN sure know where to get the right answer if it is out there.

Here is your perfection implication for you.. you claim here that you do not give out misinformation... you get the right answer from the right person... quite frankly, thats crap.

Your are WRONG here. Alan didn't make that statement I showed you. He went directly to the person responsible and that person made a false statement.

I note that your quote is from:

Scott Hartsman
Technical Director, Everquest

Do you think he was the developer who worked on this code? The developer who wrote the code is probably 2 people below him (through a tech/team lead/architect).. there is a telephone game going on here, even though Alan wasnt at the end of it.

I notice you've just dismissed that fact haven't you.

Happy? It was never dismissed, I just thought the point above was obvious enough to not refute it.

I don't expect a company I work for to accept me not doing my job properly one time because I've done a good job another.

I still dont understand your basic premise.. what job has Verant not done properly here?

I agree with the “nerf” I don’t appreciate them trying to fool and mislead their customers with jargon like “Mathmagic”.

So this whole argument is over semantics? I'm not at all clear what you would have had them do differently! You dont like their sentance structure? Invalid use of a gerund? Comma in the wrong place? If this is the whole problem, then I dont know why I bothered to argue with you... There was no deception here, you just dont like the word he used to describe the change... you a big Ken Starr fan, i'm guessing?

Honestly I don’t see everyone rallying to your side supporting your idea.

Now thats a silly thing to say, nobody else has posted to this thread in quite a while, nobody seems to be rallying to your side either.

[RSB]

The ONLY people who could POSSIBLY look at experience as more than the current amount through the current level are those with ShowEQ before the 1/330 change..

Most people I play with make comments like "Wooo just got 32 only 4 more levels to that new set of spells" or "I can't wait until I hit 60" Current progress in their level is less important then how much they have left in the race. Maybe we play with different types of people. The fact that the people I play with don't realise they've been moved back a bit farther from 50 doesn't mean it didn't happen.

but it did get harder to move forward

your harder works out to longer. Same difficulty they just pushed you back a bit. Just like taking a runner in a marathon and moving him/her back a quarter mile at the 5 mile mark. End point hasn't changed you've just been pushed back a bit. For that level 45/46 player that was 82.7% done with the race to 51 he/she now finds the he/she has to make up 5.25% of the journey to 50. This is 40 extra white mobs that that player has to kill to get to level 50 than he/she had to last week.

how do you think the average customer would have handled this information? You havnt been paying attention to the EQ customer base at all if you think they are good at accepting the truth.

So you here you are avocating them either 1 lieing or 2 just not saying everything. Well they did say more then 2 so that pushes them into the realm of 1.

but I DAMN sure know where to get the right answer if it is out there.

and if I didn't know or was confindent about and answer and I found out I was wrong or the person I brought into answer the question was wrong I inform the customer when I find out. I accept that mistakes happen its how we handle those mistakes the make the difference. And frankly that isn't crap.

Do you think he was the developer who worked on this code?

No but he's the guy that should make sure he gets the correct answer before he makes a statement and with this change (which isn't some minor obscure detail) I'm sure he and everyone else that has responsibility in this area knows the details...it is not rocked science. Its basic algebra.

I still dont understand your basic premise.. what job has Verant not done properly here?

Sorry I worded my responce poorly there. Its in reference to

Lets try applying the same standard to a company...

Just because they've produce one of the best games out doesn't mean I should except them not being completely truthful. A false/misleading statement was made and it shouldn't have been in my opinion (which you obviously disagree with, which is fine we don't have to agree on the moral issue).

So this whole argument is over semantics?...

Given the fact that a human warrior needs
148,237,740xp to get to level 50
a level 45 warrior last week had
114,817,500xp
but this week has
108,256,500xp
still has to get
148,237,740xp to get to level 50

the following statement is FALSE

didn't affect anyone's existing experience or progress.

yes I don't like that wording because it is 100% false when you know how the system works. Just because 99% of the people do not know the numbers does not make it a true statement.

Now thats a silly thing to say, nobody else has posted to this thread in quite a while, nobody seems to be rallying to your side either

Didn't say they where.

Agian I put the numbers up (which I've looked at and are not 100% accurate but they are close) so people would know what was happening. In addition I said it was crap that they made a false statement. Don't read into it any more than that.

RSB

[RSB]

New xp formula is
for below 30
(Current Level ^3) * Race mod * Class Mod * 10
for between 30 and 49
(Current Level ^3) * Race mod * Class Mod * (10 + ((Current Level - 29) *0.2))

Class is as follows:

Bard: 14
Cleric: 10
Druid: 10
Enchanter: 11
Magician: 11
Monk: 12
Necromancer: 11
Paladin: 14
Ranger: 14
Rogue: 9.05
Shadowknight: 14
Shaman: 10
Warrior: 9
Wizard: 11

Race is as follows:

Barbarian: 10.5
Dark Elf: 10
Dwarf: 10
Erudite: 10
Gnome: 10
Half-elf: 10
Halfling: 9.5
High elf: 10
Human: 10
Iksar: 12
Ogre: 11.5
Troll: 12
Wood elf: 10


Goto http://www.geocities.com/mathmagicexposed/index.html

to see it out

[high_jeeves]

This is my last post on this matter, and it will be a brief one.. we obviously have a different opinion on a few points that neither one of us are going to change our opinions on.

Also, if you are going to make nasty comments about me, please keep them on this board and thread. You didnt see me run over to hackersquest and badmouth you. We may disagree, but that should not affect common courtesy.

So you here you are avocating them either 1 lieing or 2 just not saying everything. Well they did say more then 2 so that pushes them into the realm of 1.

We disagree here, I dont think they lied, they just didnt tell the truth as you see it. They told the truth as 99.9% of the people see it... in their position, any reasonable business person would have done the same thing. They said you didnt lose experience. When I log into the game, and I look at my experience bar, I didnt lose any. That is true to 99.9% of the people who play everquest, and that is all that mattters to 99.9% of the people who play everquest.

Here is an example for you to ponder on, I think it is similar to the current situation, you said you spent some time in the Marine Core, so I think this example is topical:

About a week ago, some high military brass had a press conference regarding operation Anaconda (if you arent a news junkie like me, that is an operation in Afghanistan right now). They said many things about the situation there, didnt say many things about the operation there (rightfully so). Yesterday, I watched another news conference with the same people. A reporter had talked to somebody on the ground, and gotten more detailed (and arguably more accurate) information regarding something that went on (the use of a particular type of military hardware). This information condradicted what was said by the high brass a few days before. Did the high brass lie? Of course not.. should they have know the information before they presented it? of course they should have! did they? no! it was an honest mistake.

I think people have fuzzy memories when it comes to verant. This "misinformation" happens about once every 3-6 month, which I think if you look at it given the size of the company, size and passion of the player base, and communication level between the two, you will find that this is perfectly reasonable amount of "misinformation". Expecting them to be significantly more accurate than this is unrealistic. Expecting them to define everything in your terms (experience loss in your terms vs. in their terms) is also unrealistic.

Even on your terms (having my experience number go down equivalent to 20 or so whites), I gained that in about 2 hours of playing this evening.. not exactly the end of the world..

As I said at the beginning of my post, this is the my last post on this topic. I enjoy arguing, but I wont argue with somebody who feels it necessary to go to a different board and attack me.

--Jeeves

[REH]

Has anyone figured out the experience calcs for Vah Shir or does an SEQ user need to take one to 60 first?

[Zaphod]

REH, you sir have volunteered. Let us have the data when you're done...

Enjoy,
Zaphod (dohpaZ)

[OneDumbPlayer]

I noticed from the link to the exp chart (not the post patch one) is that although level 54 is more than 53, 55-59 all scale up from 54, and 55 is not in fact easier than 54.

Yes, 60 is listed as easier - like everyone claims.

Anyone want to shed light on if this is either wrong or changed. People will swear up and down that 55 is easier than 54....

[SeqTester]

I just dinged 56 and 55 is aprox 5,000,000 more EXP than 54.

54=50MillionEXP
55=55MillionEXP
56=60MillionEXP
^^Aprox^^

[RSB]

If you want you can see a heated discussion between Jeeves and I at
http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthrea...5&pagenumber=1
where he tries to refute the facts and say that I'm just crying "NERF"

Sorry I should have left the "where he tries to refute the facts and say that I'm just crying "NERF" " out
I've removed that line but note I did give them the URL so they could get all the facts.

I would also hardly compair Verant EQ Team with less than 100 employees to the they US Military forces where the Joint Chiefs of Staff actually do have more on their plates then just the war on terrorism and about 5-6 million people under them. Also not sure what story your talking about but some parts of it may have been classified and Most of the time they say they won't comment on something when asked about certian hardware etc. I also have a problem with how the reporters can distort things by only showing part of what was said. For example when the reporters took Bush's statement of "Wanted Dead or Alive" out of context.

I dont think they lied, they just didnt tell the truth as you see it.

This statement made me laugh a bit but I understand you think that Varant never lie. Maybe in this case they haven't either but if you think back to stuff you've said before you say you'd hold back infromation not to piss off your customers. That is not lieing I understand but willfully withholding information. If they are not lieing they need to improve their comunication channels a bit more. Ask your friendly mage that was doing their epic when if first came out and Verant said over and over that it was in completely then 2 months later the magic missing piece everyone was complaining about started dropping. Now yes the RNG on every server may have skill that item on the loot table for 2 months but it isn't likely. How much information should verant have to be given before they take a closer look at what the customers are saying. There are alot of examples of that. Not just every couple of months.

I agree it isn't the end of the world, I agree that the change is an overall good one. I also feel for the man or woman that just hit 46 that unknowingly finds themself 6 million points short of 50 or to put it in perspective having to repeat the same as half of level 45 agian over the next 4 levels to get to 50. 220 white mobs in a group is alot when you where almost at the end of the race to 50.

RSB

[RSB]

Figured out if they spread the xp down.

IE instead of

((Cur Lvl ^3) * RaceMod * ClassMod * (10 + ((Cur Lvl -29) * 0.2))
to
for levels 25 to 45
((Cur Lvl ^3) * RaceMod * ClassMod * (10 + ((Cur Lvl -25) * 0.2))
46 to 50 would have a constant level mod of 14

No one would have lost xp. Actually everyone would have gaine some xp and people would have had the same amount of distance to get to level 50 as they did before without moving their xp bar.

So basically it would have spread Hell level down to the previous 4 levels.

Ah well.

RSB

[high_jeeves]

Do you feel better now RSB? Now only did we not lose XP, we may have gained some? Looks like mathemagic rules the day, Verant's statements were 100% correct, and you are having crow for lunch today...

--Jeeves

[Cryonic]

OK, so which formula is it, did they spread the exp up or down from the hell levels?

SEQ is patched against this change:

http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthrea...=&threadid=752

and it is tracking my characters progression pretty good (EQ shows two yellows in 42, SEQ shows 40%).

[RSB]

Ummm High_jeeves, I said IF
the levels 26 to 29 have not gotten harder from my understanding.
Verant said that they've only changed levels 30 to 50.

So no I don't feel better, I feel worse because someone like me after only looking at the numbers for a few hours could have found a win win situation that they did not.

The xp is from the looks of it

((Cur Lvl ^3) * RaceMod * ClassMod * (10 + ((Cur Lvl -29) * 0.2))

Sorry Jeeves to make you think I was going to have to appologise for being wrong about the xp loss. I would have gladly done it if it was true. I just pointed out what they could have done. You said come up with a better answer and I did. They just didn't do it.

RSB