Keysniffer armor

[Mr Guy]

I had trouble deciding where to put this, so I put it here for now. My question is about what steps can be taken to even give ourselves a slight bit of protection when using the key sniffers.

I'd assume step one would be to simply rename and relocate the sniffer to somewhere more interesting.

C:\Progra~1\McAfee\vscan.exe
C:\Progra~1\Norton\nshield.exe

Perhaps.


I'd also assume adding in some 'junk' code wouldn't hurt, simply to to distort function size and memory footprint (large allocated arrays and what not).

What else should/can be done to slip the code farther to the background?



Another tought I had is more defensive in nature: Is there
A) A predefined 'rat' package that we know of, one that simply passes information back to SOE that could be used for banning purposes
or
B) A packet we haven't figured out, or functions watching for packets we haven't figured out.

The reason I ask is that I figure if they are going to watch for processes or memory sniffers or whatever, they have to transmit that at some point right? How would they do that? Would we know about it if it happens? Would we be able to prove they are sniffing memory looking for us perhaps? Can we decompile and check for THEM checking memory? How can we look for their counter measures, if there are any?

Right now I'm too paranoid to use a keysniffer. Is this silly of me?

[Gullork]

I've been wondering some of the same things.

And is it silly of you? Absolutely not. If you are not willing to take the risk, then don't try it. Period. Of course, that was true even of the passive Showeq.

There is always risk, especially when they don't have to tell you why they ban you, don't have to offer any explanation whatsoever.

I'm keep wondering if it is possible for someone running a real virus scanner to get banned for the proggy accessing those areas of memory. But I'm not a programmer (yet. yes I finally broke down and am learning c++. Having fun too.).

[lane]

If people start getting band and they "us the people" suspect that SoE is monitoring our computer and what is running on it EQ will most likely stop because of the lawsuits against them.

There is no way in hell that they can legally monitor programs running on our computers and get away with it. There are far too many smart people on these boards. Someone would find a way to see what they are doing and it would stop. Either by them or the law.

I'm not saying you wouldn't get banned etc. I'm just saying if this gets to that point SoE could be in some serious trouble.

-Lane

Edit: Fixed a stupid mistake.

[throx]

There is no way in hell that they can legally monitor programs running on our computers and get away with it.

I've heard this a lot. Does anyone actually have any precedent to suggest this is anything more than urban myth?

[Repard]

In my own twisted way of thinking I think that this would apply.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Main problem is that they can ban you for ANYTHING they want. If you catch them scanning your system then you might have a case but if you just login one day and find that you are banned because they want to then too bad. You're banned. They don't even need to give a reason. Kinda sucks but they don't. We access their servers and they have the right to refuse service to anyone if they want. I don't agree with them scanning my system to find what I'm doing on it but if they do and I don't catch them doing it what can I say? If I get banned what can I say? They don't have to do a damn thing for me.

Just my 2cp

P.S. I may be wrong in my assumption on the 4th amendment but my perception is my reality.

[high_jeeves]

I've heard this a lot. Does anyone actually have any precedent to suggest this is anything more than urban myth?

Its an urban myth.

Amendment IV

This applies to GOVERNMENT search and seizure... SOE != Government... They can scan your system...

--Jeeves

[BonZolI]

You can't sign away your constitutional rights.

Worse then stopping some SEQ users, having your game known as Spyware will cause many new users to look at other RPG's and many current Paying customers to stop paying to keep those accounts they aren't using but dont want to kill 200days played.

The Spyware stigma has killed many a good idea on the net. Which is worse Paying SEQ users or non paying Xgamers/nogrowth? Money is what matters most here.

The spyware stigma posted to every geek board and gaming site would ruin the community feeling for Everquest.

Its always easier to believe the bad things about someone versus the good things. Its definitely easier if you are the market leader.

Just my 2 cents.

[high_jeeves]

There is a big difference between a stigma and illegal.. They can scan.. it isnt illegal. Yes, it would be very bad PR.. but that doesnt make it illegal.

--Jeeves

[Mr Guy]

I'm not sure you are right on that one Jeeves. I do know you can press charges and even have store security arrested on the grounds of illegal search and false imprisonment. (Hint: if they say, may I check your receipt, or may I look in your bag, say No and keep walking. If they stop you, call the police and inform them they are committing assault. If they touch you, it's battery. If they say, "Come with me" , again, say No.)

I'm not sure how hard it would be to push that issue over into cyber space. They most certainly can NOT search you, your computer, without your permission. The permission in a EULA is a tough question though.

[high_jeeves]

They most certainly can NOT search you, your computer, without your permission.

Again... this is an urban myth. Show me a law, or case where this has been proven. You installed the software.. they didnt break any laws getting the software installed. Dont you think that if this were thy case, lots of these "spyware" application companies (located in the US) would be out of business by now? They clearly search your computer for information, somtimes including information like internet history and contacts, which is MUCH more sensitive than what applications you are running. Yet, nobody has been able to succesfully shut those down. Applications search your system ALL THE TIME without your permission... sometimes they are looking for previously installed components, or conflicting libraries, etc... do they every ask you, or even warn you that they are going to do this? No.

Its not a law just because people dont like it.. it actually has to be written somewhere.

Now, if they were scanning your machine and sending back data, there might be an argument here (Although, I still dont think there would be). Scanning your hard drive, and sending back a flag saying that something "offensive" was found however is not illegal.

The store clerk searching your bag is a different scenario.. they dont have a right to search your bag. If they ask to search, you can say no. If they grab you to search, you can charge them...
This doesnt line up at all with the computer search analogy tho.

--Jeeves

[Cryonic]

Actually, if they don't ask your permission (which VI/SOE and most spyware companies do), then it can be considered a Virus and dealt with as such. Most spyware gets installed along with other software (e.g. Kazaa), so it's EULA is part of the other software's agreement. Most users don't read before clicking "I agree", so they don't notice the inclusion of other apps.

[high_jeeves]

Actually, if they don't ask your permission (which VI/SOE and most spyware companies do), then it can be considered a Virus and dealt with as such.

Yes.. that is correct... it is a different situation, where the software was placed on your machine without your knowing or consent. That is handled by one of the more recent computer security laws (I beleive it was passed in 1996 or 98? Dont remember exactly).

--Jeeves

[seqmage]

yes i installed their software, yes i play their game and access their servers..
their software must work as intended(what a reasonable person would expect the software to do).. unless they expliciltly inform you that they will be scanning, they cant do it.

The funny thing is, A lot of the stuff SEQ shows us is now avaliable by using a custom skin in the game.
the compas, the percentages you can add for health, the numbers for skills, so it seems to me that they did learn from SEQ...

They should look at changing the encription back to the old way.. cause with everyone having to put stuff on Windows, its only a matter of time before SEQ becomes WSEQ all over.

[LordCrush]

Hmm shall we write an anonymous petition -

"Plz change the encryption to that was pre 31.10.02" ?

- JK

[sequser5516]

How often do people actually read the EULA when they log on? It wouldn't be to hard for SOE to put a clause in there stating that they may scan your memory. All most of us do is hit the "Accept" button as soon as we log on. By the time anybody actually found out that it was there, they could have any number of people banned, and you just accepted their ammendment.